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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize (Read 5791 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #24 - 03/07/16 at 16:32:15
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 03/04/16 at 14:32:00:
Yes, I think after 10 0-0-0 Bb7 11 h3 Nh6 12 Bd3, your 12 ...e6!? is better than 12 ...Bxf3, for the reason you give. I think I'd imagined ...e6 was too slow but it seems OK and ...c5 can follow. The other lines are complicated of course but look quite possibly OK for Black to me.

All in all this is the best defence I can see to the f4/Be3 plan. Do you agree or do you think Black has better?

Hard for me to say because there quite a few possible lines after 6.Be3 and I have not looked at all of them nearly as deep as I would have like to have.

Very generally though I am disposed towards lines where black draws out e5 from white and in various forms plays around the centre (like he does in 6...Nbd7 7.Qd2 a6 8.e5 Ng4)...
Instead lines where black goes c5 at some point and tries to violently dismantle white's centre mostly look ardous imo.

Anyway if we ever try to concretely analyse what is black's best reply to 6.Be3 it should probably be done in another thread.



Also. Very interesting discussion about engines. Thanks for the insight.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #23 - 03/06/16 at 21:42:01
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Masterful stuff! Thanks to both. I've bookmarked the Chess Beta page.
  
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Vass
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #22 - 03/06/16 at 21:07:45
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Michael Ayton wrote on 03/06/16 at 18:56:01:
Hi Vass and thanks for this! I hope your correspondence games are going well!

What I was wondering about was not so much this specific position, but just a general question -- why is it that the same engine, working in the same GUI, at the same time-limits and configured exactly the same, might sometimes play different moves on different occasions (like Stockfish 7 above)? Is this common, or unusual?

It's all about the so-called chess engine pruning of the candidate moves.
There are different types of pruning - alpha/beta, null move pruning, etc. All represent different types of technique of modern programming of chess engines. In short, pruning is counter-productive to precision, but provides speed. Randomness is often present in the process of pruning - therefore different lines and moves produced by the same conditions' configured engine. Just "google" 'chess engine pruning' and read about it! You'll be amazed by the things you'd find. For example, read this: http://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/1970/why-do-chess-engines-sometimes-mis..., especially the discussion below.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #21 - 03/06/16 at 20:59:17
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Michael Ayton wrote on 03/06/16 at 18:56:01:
why is it that the same engine, working in the same GUI, at the same time-limits and configured exactly the same, might sometimes play different moves on different occasions (like Stockfish 7 above)? Is this common, or unusual?


This is OT, but anyway. I'll take a guess (I have no real idea, just a basic understanding of how engines work) that there are at least two plausible explanations.
1. If you didn't clear the hash table, this can lead to a different result the following times, because some evaluations are already stored beforehand when you start the second analysis. These are used and therefore can influence the result
2. Pruning, i.e. that not all variations are analysed, but some are trimmed and this could be somewhat random depending on the engine.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #20 - 03/06/16 at 19:24:46
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I presume the evaluations are at least very close?

I think this can be presumed, yes, though I didn't keep a record.
  
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MartinC
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #19 - 03/06/16 at 19:14:41
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I presume the evaluations are at least very close?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #18 - 03/06/16 at 18:56:01
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Hi Vass and thanks for this! I hope your correspondence games are going well!

What I was wondering about was not so much this specific position, but just a general question -- why is it that the same engine, working in the same GUI, at the same time-limits and configured exactly the same, might sometimes play different moves on different occasions (like Stockfish 7 above)? Is this common, or unusual?
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #17 - 03/06/16 at 18:33:13
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Michael Ayton wrote on 03/05/16 at 11:29:11:
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Well, the software wants to play 12...Nf5 there instead of ...e6 and suggests rough equality. Knight has been rerouted nicely enough, and kside is safe.
Black plays on the light squares: Nb6-c4/d5.


See what you mean. I guess Black can leave ...e6 till the Knight needs an escape square.

But my strongest engines come up with a range of tries! Komodo 7 and Fire 4 choose 12 ...Nf5, as does a new Stockfish test version (TS 0303016 64 POPCNT); but SugaR 2.0 (whatever that is!) plays 12 ...b4, Houdini 1.5a 12 ...Nb6, and Gull 3.0 12 ...Bxf3. Meanwhile the strongest engine of 'em all, Stockfish 7 (3246!), chose 12 ...Qc8!? the first time I fed it, but then went for 12 ...e6 twice afterwards! (Why do engines sometimes vary like this? -- maybe Vass can tell us? Huh)

Grand opening, the Pirc, if you can survive the Archbishes and the bore-by-Byrne.


Just another position which proves the imperfection of today's best engines. And in my correspondence chess practice I've seen many... Despite the attacks of those who pretend that there is no real correspondence chess nowadays (and all turned out to be an engine operator's affair), the reality proves the contrary to "all who have understanding".  Wink
Anyway, the best correspondence chess players can analyze even such positions "to death" and can produce "the essence of the chess truth" out of those positions if there is any. Some of them even have them (moves and lines) in their dreams...for nights.. It needs more than a week at least to analyze such a position and finally to assure yourself of reaching the point that you are ready to play the best move indeed.
As for this exact position, I cannot tell you what's the best line. I don't have time to waste for analyzing position that are not parts of my correspondence chess games. Though I wish I had it, just to demonstrate the power of the analytical skills that I am talking about.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #16 - 03/05/16 at 11:29:11
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Quote:
Well, the software wants to play 12...Nf5 there instead of ...e6 and suggests rough equality. Knight has been rerouted nicely enough, and kside is safe.
Black plays on the light squares: Nb6-c4/d5.


See what you mean. I guess Black can leave ...e6 till the Knight needs an escape square.

But my strongest engines come up with a range of tries! Komodo 7 and Fire 4 choose 12 ...Nf5, as does a new Stockfish test version (TS 0303016 64 POPCNT); but SugaR 2.0 (whatever that is!) plays 12 ...b4, Houdini 1.5a 12 ...Nb6, and Gull 3.0 12 ...Bxf3. Meanwhile the strongest engine of 'em all, Stockfish 7 (3246!), chose 12 ...Qc8!? the first time I fed it, but then went for 12 ...e6 twice afterwards! (Why do engines sometimes vary like this? -- maybe Vass can tell us? Huh)

Grand opening, the Pirc, if you can survive the Archbishes and the bore-by-Byrne.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #15 - 03/05/16 at 01:45:53
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Michael Ayton wrote on 03/04/16 at 14:32:00:
Yes, I think after 10 0-0-0 Bb7 11 h3 Nh6 12 Bd3, your 12 ...e6!? is better than 12 ...Bxf3, for the reason you give. I think I'd imagined ...e6 was too slow but it seems OK and ...c5 can follow. The other lines are complicated of course but look quite possibly OK for Black to me.

All in all this is the best defence I can see to the f4/Be3 plan. Do you agree or do you think Black has better?



Well, the software wants to play 12...Nf5 there instead of ...e6 and suggests rough equality. Knight has been rerouted nicely enough, and kside is safe.
Black plays on the light squares: Nb6-c4/d5.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #14 - 03/04/16 at 14:32:00
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Yes, I think after 10 0-0-0 Bb7 11 h3 Nh6 12 Bd3, your 12 ...e6!? is better than 12 ...Bxf3, for the reason you give. I think I'd imagined ...e6 was too slow but it seems OK and ...c5 can follow. The other lines are complicated of course but look quite possibly OK for Black to me.

All in all this is the best defence I can see to the f4/Be3 plan. Do you agree or do you think Black has better?


  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #13 - 02/20/16 at 22:31:21
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 02/18/16 at 00:30:31:
H'mm. Looking at this a bit I confess I'm stumped (for Black) after 6 ...Nbd7 7 Qd2 c5, or 6 ...b6 -- all the lines I've looked at leave Black under real pressure. But what about 6 ...Nbd7 7 Qd2 a6!?? For example 8 e5 Ng4 and:

I  9 Bg1 b5 10 0-0-0 (best perhaps?) Bb7 and:
(a) 11 h3 Nh6 12 Bd3 Bf3 13 gf c5 14 dc Nc5
(b) 11 Qe1 Qc8 with a v. complicated position! (e.g. 12 Kb1 Nb6 13 Bd3 b4)

II 9 0-0-0!? Ne3 10 Qe3 c5! (no credit for other moves!), with an even more complicated position! I'm sure e6 or h4 could be dangerous but maybe there's enough counterplay?

(6.Be3 Nbd7 7.Qd2 a6) is an almost unexplored playable system. Regarding your lines:

II (6.Be3 Nbd7 7.Qd2 a6 8.e5 Ng4 9.0-0-0) can be met by (9...b5) when (10.Bg1) with a normal position looks best

I (6.Be3 Nbd7 7.Qd2 a6 8.e5 Ng4 9.Bg1 Bb7) and white can choose to delay long castling e.g.

(10.h3 Nh6 11.g4!?)
(10.Bd3 Bb7 11.e6!?)

If white goes for castling though:
(10.0-0-0 Bb7 11.h3 Nh6 12.Bd3)
(12...Bxf3 13.gxf3 c5 14.dxc5 Nxc5 15.Bxc5 dxc5 16.Qf2) looks comfortable for white.
(12...e6) or (12...Nf5) keep solidity in black's setup and even if he is not close to freeing his position he may be OK.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #12 - 02/18/16 at 19:09:59
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NegiRefutes wrote on 02/17/16 at 19:50:09:
7. dxe5 is OK, but many top players have been playing 7. fxe5 recently. I'm not asking if 6... Nfd7 is good for Black, I'm wondering if Black can just equalize by playing 8... Nxc3. Likely the dxe5 line is equal if Black knows what he is doing and 8... Nxc3 is a forced draw. I was asking if anyone knows why no one plays 8...Nxc3.


ok fair point. personally as Black I'd be more worried by the endgame after dxe5, in the fxe5 line I can see nothing wrong with your analysis, although its just another playable way for Black to go there - 8...Be6 is completely fine also, or at least used to be.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #11 - 02/18/16 at 00:30:31
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Still think black is OK after 6.Be3 if he knows what he is doing. Probably in more then one continuation.

It's just if you analyse the main lines (in 6.Be3) and expect to find something resembling equality for black against white's best moves it just isn't there in the vast majority of continuations.


H'mm. Looking at this a bit I confess I'm stumped (for Black) after 6 ...Nbd7 7 Qd2 c5, or 6 ...b6 -- all the lines I've looked at leave Black under real pressure. But what about 6 ...Nbd7 7 Qd2 a6!?? For example 8 e5 Ng4 and:

9 Bg1 b5 10 0-0-0 (best perhaps?) Bb7 and:
(a) 11 h3 Nh6 12 Bd3 Bf3 13 gf c5 14 dc Nc5
(b) 11 Qe1 Qc8 with a v. complicated position! (e.g. 12 Kb1 Nb6 13 Bd3 b4)

II 9 0-0-0!? Ne3 10 Qe3 c5! (no credit for other moves!), with an even more complicated position! I'm sure e6 or h4 could be dangerous but maybe there's enough counterplay?

  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #10 - 02/17/16 at 22:10:51
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MartinC wrote on 02/17/16 at 20:16:55:
It probably just 'looks' wrong I think? More natural to try and keep the knight where it is with e6 or c6/going Nb6.

Concretely I'd be more worried about white turning cave man and running his h pawn rather than castling. The center looks quite stable with the pawn on c3 and lots of pieces pointing at the kingside so it must be reasonably dangerous.


Yes, taking the c3-Knight looks a bit wrong, but if you are playing a player who likes to study a bit, he could easily find this move. What do correspondence players play against the Pirc/Modern?
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #9 - 02/17/16 at 21:50:30
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Hi.

fling wrote on 02/16/16 at 20:27:20:
Btw, 8. Ne4 as given by Confused_by_Theory, can't be better for White after 8...Bf5 9. Ng3 Bg4, right? White has some time before he can castle and in the meantime Black can attack the center with ...f6.

8.Ne4 is indeed not good enough for advantage.

In general white's 7th and 8th move alternatives after 6.e5 dxe5 look not so critical.

fling wrote on 02/16/16 at 20:27:20:
Anyway, just like Confused_by_Theory, I favor Greet's recommendation with 6. Be3, which makes it hard to rely on this line for Black.

Still think black is OK after 6.Be3 if he knows what he is doing. Probably in more then one continuation.

It's just if you analyse the main lines (in 6.Be3) and expect to find something resembling equality for black against white's best moves it just isn't there in the vast majority of continuations.

MartinC wrote on 02/17/16 at 20:16:55:
It probably just 'looks' wrong I think? More natural to try and keep the knight where it is with e6 or c6/going Nb6.

Concretely I'd be more worried about white turning cave man and running his h pawn rather than castling. The center looks quite stable with the pawn on c3 and lots of pieces pointing at the kingside so it must be reasonably dangerous.

Had some misgivings myself about black's prospects; thinking that white should be able to get an attack going somehow. Checking the line a bit I get the impression that it is not so easy for white to attack though.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #8 - 02/17/16 at 20:16:55
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It probably just 'looks' wrong I think? More natural to try and keep the knight where it is with e6 or c6/going Nb6.

Concretely I'd be more worried about white turning cave man and running his h pawn rather than castling. The center looks quite stable with the pawn on c3 and lots of pieces pointing at the kingside so it must be reasonably dangerous.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #7 - 02/17/16 at 19:51:33
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Bibs wrote on 02/14/16 at 21:55:47:
Can you situate this in current theory? From where?
What does theory say about such? Which (recent) games? Which books? Which articles (e.g. Here at CP, NIC Yearbook #)?
It's certainly much easier to discuss when situated.
Currently some of your posts lean toward 'Tell me everything about x. Do all my work for me.'


All right then, what do I even post about?
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #6 - 02/17/16 at 19:50:09
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Keano wrote on 02/16/16 at 19:50:05:
random op and outrageous claim given the numerous alternatives for both sides and the fact thats not even close to the main line. White has dxe5, The whole ..Nfd7 complexities, etc. etc. etc.


7. dxe5 is OK, but many top players have been playing 7. fxe5 recently. I'm not asking if 6... Nfd7 is good for Black, I'm wondering if Black can just equalize by playing 8... Nxc3. Likely the dxe5 line is equal if Black knows what he is doing and 8... Nxc3 is a forced draw. I was asking if anyone knows why no one plays 8...Nxc3.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #5 - 02/16/16 at 20:27:20
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Bibs asked for some more info and I agree that the op is quite random indeed. But in the line given in the op, even though it is not close to a main line, Black is fine from what I can tell, which was a bit surprising to me.

The ...Nfd7 lines are more complex for both sides, although fine for Black I think. I had a look at Nakamura-Smirin, 2005, commented by John Watson here at Chesspub. He mentions a possible improvement for Black, but it is a line that is clearly better for White! However, Martinez Ramirez-Narciso Dublan, 2014, seems to be a game to follow for both sides. There are is an alternative at move 16 mentioned by McDonald, but this is most likely equal.

The line with 7. dxe5 Qxd1 and now 8. Nxd1 might be tricky for White. The games commented here after 7...Qxd1 played by Onischuk don't seem to be a big problem theoretically for Black, though.

Anyway, just like Confused_by_Theory, I favor Greet's recommendation with 6. Be3, which makes it hard to rely on this line for Black.

Btw, 8. Ne4 as given by Confused_by_Theory, can't be better for White after 8...Bf5 9. Ng3 Bg4, right? White has some time before he can castle and in the meantime Black can attack the center with ...f6.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #4 - 02/16/16 at 19:50:05
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random op and outrageous claim given the numerous alternatives for both sides and the fact thats not even close to the main line. White has dxe5, The whole ..Nfd7 complexities, etc. etc. etc.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #3 - 02/15/16 at 02:05:24
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Hello.

NegiRefutes wrote on 02/14/16 at 18:53:11:
It seems that with 8... Nxc3 Black can easily equalize against White's 6. e5 in the Austrian attack. Does White have anything in this line that I am missing?

The only time I got this position my opponent played 8.Ne4 likely to disallow 8...Nxc3.

Was otherwise planning on going 8.Bc4 Nxc3 Wink

fling wrote on 02/14/16 at 21:56:19:
No, not that I can see. In fact, many of White's alternatives look worse after 6. e5.

However, White has 6. Be3, as well as one of the other main lines 6. Bd3. Is Black doing ok in those?

Well.

Against 6.Be3 I for one have never been quite convinced by any one black line found in Pirc litterature. Greet made a good effort showcasing some nice ideas for white in many lines.

Against 6.Bd3 I don't know where white should seek advantage after 6...Nc6 7.e5. Vigus shows a significant idea in one of the main lines.
After 7.0-0 e5 8.d5 Ne7 I reckon white should try something more or less new instead of 9.fxe5 dxe5 10.Bg5
Also after 8...Nd4 I don't know how to gain any real advantage as white. Moskalenko gives a nice king move in one of the critical lines.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #2 - 02/14/16 at 21:56:19
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No, not that I can see. In fact, many of White's alternatives look worse after 6. e5.

However, White has 6. Be3, as well as one of the other main lines 6. Bd3. Is Black doing ok in those?
  
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Re: 6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
Reply #1 - 02/14/16 at 21:55:47
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Can you situate this in current theory? From where?
What does theory say about such? Which (recent) games? Which books? Which articles (e.g. Here at CP, NIC Yearbook #)?
It's certainly much easier to discuss when situated.
Currently some of your posts lean toward 'Tell me everything about x. Do all my work for me.'
  
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6. e5 Austrian Attack -- Black can easily equalize
02/14/16 at 18:53:11
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It seems that with 8... Nxc3 Black can easily equalize against White's 6. e5 in the Austrian attack. Does White have anything in this line that I am missing?

  
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