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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA? (Read 5496 times)
Keano
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #35 - 04/04/16 at 18:36:30
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brabo wrote on 04/03/16 at 16:25:19:


I have made an attempt to rehabilitate the line after Brabo's convincing analysis. See this thread:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1444067885

This may have to be my new line against the 4 pawns if I ever venture the Alekhine again...
  
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brabo
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #34 - 04/03/16 at 16:25:19
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TalJechin wrote on 04/03/16 at 12:23:16:
Is there anything wrong with the g6 defence nowadays? At least, I liked that Be6-idea of Sergeev's the last time I played the AL - it's an opening I always seem to have played quite intensively for periods of about 6-7 months and then I move on to something else for several years, and then for some reason I tend to rediscover it...

The idea of Sergeev has been discussed already here twice see:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1444067885/5
and
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1267504014/30
  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #33 - 04/03/16 at 14:15:25
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In the recent book by the Sveshnikov's they mention that Mikenas said that

"Alekhine's defence would not be a bad opening, if it were not for the 4 PA. There black has big problems. However Bagirov explained why he was not bothered by the 4PA.

Here, Black has no fewer than eight possible continuations, in every one of which White, if he plays the wrong move, risks not only to lose the opening advantage, but even standing standing seriously worse"

The main point is that a White player only meets the Alekhine once in a while and it is difficult to be prepared against all of these continuations. Vassilious Kotronias seesm to be one White player that consistently uses the 4PA and .. to win"

Also, I saw a comment, or more precisely I think i saw comment, that a well known English player that once in a while played the Alekhine (some of his games even appear mentioned in some of the recent books) said that the reason why he stopped playing the Alekhine is that he has no comfortable line against the 4PA
  
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Keano
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #32 - 04/03/16 at 13:53:17
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@Brabo @TonyRo - very interesting stuff. 10.d6! does seem critical.

10...Be6!? looks like the only hope for Black to revive the line. Then if 11.Nb5 Nd5 might be OK for Black.

Although after the simple 11.Nf3 the situation remains problematic for Black.

I have to admit this 10.d6 line might discourage me from playing my old line in future.

  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #31 - 04/03/16 at 12:23:16
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Is there anything wrong with the g6 defence nowadays? At least, I liked that Be6-idea of Sergeev's the last time I played the AL - it's an opening I always seem to have played quite intensively for periods of about 6-7 months and then I move on to something else for several years, and then for some reason I tend to rediscover it...
  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #30 - 04/03/16 at 07:47:19
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TonyRo wrote on 04/03/16 at 01:54:21:
My understanding could be dated, but I always thought that 8.Nc3 exd5 9.cxd5 c4 10.d6! is basically grim death.

I wrote some analysis about this line in my article http://chess-brabo.blogspot.be/2014/11/commenting-games.html

You can also find information about 9...Qh4 on my blog see http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/11/partijpublicaties.html
I always hoped once to play the analysis below in a game.


and about 8...Qh4 on my blog see
http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2013/07/de-sterktelijst.html
  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #29 - 04/03/16 at 01:54:21
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My understanding could be dated, but I always thought that 8.Nc3 exd5 9.cxd5 c4 10.d6! is basically grim death.
  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #28 - 04/02/16 at 21:18:48
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What about the old line 6...c5 7.d5 e6 against the 4 pawns attack?
Probably the computers will give this as complete rubbish these days, but thats what I used to play when I dabbled with the Alekhine's and did Ok with it.
  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #27 - 04/01/16 at 20:38:48
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Paddy wrote on 04/01/16 at 12:46:43:
In your pgn you refer to the Russian book by Chetverik and Kalinichenko. What's your opinion of it?

It would certainly help if I knew the Cyrillic alphabet but other than that, as a reference, it's a solid work. Pretty comprehensive, and Chetverik has experience with Black. Certainly better than most of the older texts that I have, and I'd rather use it than the newer Taylor and Lakdawala books. Definitely worth picking up in my humble opinion. And it's hardback!  Wink [/quote]

Tony did a nice and adequate description of the book by Chetverik
  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #26 - 04/01/16 at 19:09:25
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Paddy wrote on 04/01/16 at 12:46:43:
Hi Tony, "just for fun" you say.
Wow; many thanks for posting that - it's fascinating stuff but now my head's spinning!

Yes, quite a mess indeed, you're welcome. Hopefully more analysis on other lines will come!

Paddy wrote on 04/01/16 at 12:46:43:
For practical over-the-board play this was exactly the sort of thing I was trying to avoid in the past with 9...Bg4 and latterly with 9...Bb4, but if 9...Be7 is really the most reliable line after all, then it seems it's a case of bite-the-bullet or give up the Alekhine (again).

Well, on some level it's not all that bad really - after 19.Bb5 you must remember 19...c6 20.Bg5 Bf3! and the rest mostly plays itself. Against 19.Be2 you can remember the easier 19...c5 and the line from the Gaprindashvili game I quoted, which is relatively straightforward. And against 19.Bg5, you just take on f1!  Grin

Paddy wrote on 04/01/16 at 12:46:43:
However, as I mentioned in an earlier post, as well as having to master the huge complications in the line in your pgn, Black has to face the unattractive possibility of White's drying out the play with 15 Nxc6, as analysed on Chess Publishing by Tom Rendle (Luther-Rozentalis, Bundesliga 2013).

True, this line does seem a little drier than other lines, but I think either Rendle's suggested 15...bxc6!? or just trying to play for a win in an equal-ish but somewhat unclear position (see game below) is a fine outcome for Black:



Paddy wrote on 04/01/16 at 12:46:43:
Plus there are the problems identified in the Old Main Line with 10 (or 9) Be2. 

What did you think of my 15...e5!? idea a few posts above? Seems interesting and equal-ish, and practically challenging for White.

Paddy wrote on 04/01/16 at 12:46:43:
In your pgn you refer to the Russian book by Chetverik and Kalinichenko. What's your opinion of it?

It would certainly help if I knew the Cyrillic alphabet but other than that, as a reference, it's a solid work. Pretty comprehensive, and Chetverik has experience with Black. Certainly better than most of the older texts that I have, and I'd rather use it than the newer Taylor and Lakdawala books. Definitely worth picking up in my humble opinion. And it's hardback!  Wink
  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #25 - 04/01/16 at 12:46:43
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TonyRo wrote on 03/29/16 at 21:00:33:
I took a look-see as well and didn't find anything to bolster up Black's cause in the 9...Bb4 line either. Fundamentally, I think the e5-wedge and the lack of Black's dark-squared bishop just causes too many problems on the kingside.

Just for fun last night, I also did a quick analysis of the absolute main line tabiya that starts at move 19, just to see what I could dig up. The following is not exhaustive, I just tried to prove that Black was fine, and also dig up interesting new ideas or push out the lines a bit further. Enjoy!


Hi Tony, "just for fun" you say.
Wow; many thanks for posting that - it's fascinating stuff but now my head's spinning!
For practical over-the-board play this was exactly the sort of thing I was trying to avoid in the past with 9...Bg4 and latterly with 9...Bb4, but if 9...Be7 is really the most reliable line after all, then it seems it's a case of bite-the-bullet or give up the Alekhine (again). (The alternatives 9...Nb4 and 9...Qd7 have never tempted me either.)

However, as I mentioned in an earlier post, as well as having to master the huge complications in the line in your pgn, Black has to face the unattractive possibility of White's drying out the play with 15 Nxc6, as analysed on Chess Publishing by Tom Rendle (Luther-Rozentalis, Bundesliga 2013). Plus there are the problems identified in the Old Main Line with 10 (or 9) Be2. 

So in the Four Pawns Attack alone, the "Alekhine boat" seems to be leaking in several places; and that's just one of White's dangerous theoretical challenges. I don't know of a truly satisfactory system against 4 Nf3 either!

In your pgn you refer to the Russian book by Chetverik and Kalinichenko. What's your opinion of it?
  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #24 - 03/29/16 at 21:00:33
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I took a look-see as well and didn't find anything to bolster up Black's cause in the 9...Bb4 line either. Fundamentally, I think the e5-wedge and the lack of Black's dark-squared bishop just causes too many problems on the kingside.

Just for fun last night, I also did a quick analysis of the absolute main line tabiya that starts at move 19, just to see what I could dig up. The following is not exhaustive, I just tried to prove that Black was fine, and also dig up interesting new ideas or push out the lines a bit further. Enjoy!

  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #23 - 03/28/16 at 14:44:08
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Paddy wrote on 03/25/16 at 22:59:58:
TonyRo wrote on 03/25/16 at 18:33:09:
I guess the first step is to find an improvement over this game: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1717104

Though I'll admit I haven't had time to check out Paddy's notes, which might already have some ideas!


Sorry - my pgn was with reference to GM Leinier Dominguez playing White against 9...Be7, rather than providing evidence of the viability of 9...Bb4. 

But I will check my database and notes and see if I can come up with anything useful to back up my feeling that 9...Bb4 should provide adequate counterplay.

Although there is no shortage of OTB games in the database, this "Tarrasch variation" has not received systematic testing at a high level. However, there is a lot of material from corres. games that might be useful.


I decided to make a brief review of the literature.

Possibly the most detailed existing source of material on 9...Bb4 (and older 4PA theory in general) is in "Enzyklopädie der Aljechin-Verteidigung Band A Der Vierbauernangriff" (2nd edition) by Erich Siebenhaar, Dreier-verlag 1995, which has six pages on it.

This important source does not appear in the bibliography of any of the most recent books on the Alekhine: Lakdawala, Taylor, Davies, Bogdanov or Cox - the last two being the most objective and providing the best verbal explanations in my opinion.

I think the discussion of move order subtleties in the 4PA in Bogdanov's book is particularly good, which is perhaps not so surprising when one learns that Graham Burgess edited it (2009).

Bogdanov has little detail on 9...Bb4, stating merely that "This whole line has not been seen much in recent years, and there is scope for further investigation here."

Cox (2004) wrote: "White's most sensible reply is 10 Be2 0-0 11 Rc1, meeting 11...Na5 with 12 Bg5 Qd7 13 c5 Na4 14 Qd2 and so on. White can castle on the kingside and has dangerous attacking chances there with Black's minor pieces stuck on the queenside. Black has yet to demonstrate a decent counter to this plan."

Edit: I've now had a good look at the game quoted by Brabo and must admit that White's attacking plan against Black's cramped kingside is very dangerous! Davies (2001) was optimistic about Black's prospects in the position after move 13 but it seems that 14 Bg5! is far stronger than the alternatives and sets serious problems.

So far (using books, database and Stockfish 7) I have been unable to find a satisfactory line for Black: with ...Qd5, ...Qd7, inserting ...h6 or delaying ...0-0. Black seems to have no time to challenge White in the centre starting with the break with ...b6, which is the main source of counterplay when White has the pawn structure c3, c5, d4, e5.

I had assembled a database of over 300 games with 9...Bb4 to assist my study - all useless, it seems, against Brabo's well-constructed "killer repertoire" for White with the Four Pawns Attack!

So it goes.
« Last Edit: 03/29/16 at 13:25:20 by Paddy »  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #22 - 03/28/16 at 13:54:54
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My personal notes also show that 14...Qd5 can be answered exactly in the same way with 15.Nh4 Be4 16.Qc1
  
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Re: What Are You Guys Playing in the 4PA?
Reply #21 - 03/28/16 at 12:04:48
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Concerning the variation after 9...Bb4, and as a starting point for discussion, it appears to me that the main line starts with 10.Be2 (there are other 10th moves for White but Be2 appears best)

here Black either plays i) 10...0-0 or ii) 10...Na5 at once
(10...Qd7 has been seen also and might playable) with the plan c7-c5 (but many times i) and ii) transpose)

i) 10...0-0 11.0-0 (Rc1!?) Na5 (to play c5).
Here White can either play a) 12.c5 or b) 12. Nd2
a) 12.c5 allows 12...Bxc3 13.bxc3 Nbc4 and after 13.Bc1 b5 the literature contains several variants but apparently Black is doing Ok
b) 12.Nd2 here the literature continuation is 12...Bg6 to prepare c7-c5.

ii) After 10...Na5 11.c5 Black should take care not to play 11...Nbc4 because of 12.BxN NxB 13. Qa4+

Not sure if these lines are topical but here there are already two options for each side, Black plays 0-0 or delays this move with Na5 and White, after Na5, either play c5 or Nd2
??!
  
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