Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt (Read 2617 times)
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 529
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #16 - 04/07/16 at 16:16:36
Post Tools
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 529
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #15 - 04/07/16 at 16:10:27
Post Tools
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 529
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #14 - 04/07/16 at 11:26:26
Post Tools
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 529
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #13 - 04/06/16 at 22:31:19
Post Tools
apparently yes

chesse111 and Tony, many many thanks

file above, not easy to read since it is not easy to distinguish comments from middle text, to "real" analysis move

this was analised with Komodo8 and Houdini4, and based on several engine matches i did strating from several positions; when i say something like "Houdini prefer" means that in most of games it played like this;
since i am in a Statistics and OR department; i made several games between engines from same position

I agree with colleagues here that the position is not nice after 10...h6 11.Nf6+ Kf8

But i think Black is not OK after any othe rmove although in the file i only showed 10...N6d7 and 10...Nc6; of course it is not easy to give a nice line "Black loses becausee of this variation"

This was done sometime ago so I dont remember everything.

you are welcome to disagree

in the next few days i will send files with variations after 10...h6 which i think is playable despite the position looking ugly after 11...Kf8.

It is nice Tony raised the subject here !!!!

Finally, the very recent game of Pavlov that I mentioned here a few posts ago is "engine played" for many many moves;  Wink but i will come back to this again

Thanks again for your help, luis
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 529
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #12 - 04/06/16 at 22:18:22
Post Tools
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1678
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #11 - 04/06/16 at 21:04:16
Post Tools
lg wrote on 04/06/16 at 18:14:54:
my apologies again but could you be more specific about
"paste" the pgn between the pgn tags ?!


If the below wasn't clear lg, you take your pgn and place it between the text [ppgn] and [/ppgn], but without the extra p's. If you quote cheese111's post above and take a look at what the text actually looks like in the quote, you'll be able to see.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cheese111
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 27
Joined: 04/10/15
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #10 - 04/06/16 at 20:01:02
Post Tools
Oh, sure. As PGN is just text which is read in a special way, you can copy and paste it like other text. If you are using Chessbase and Windows, just click the "Copy Game" button in the upper left corner which will copy the pgn as text to your clipboard. Then, after you have clicked on the PGN button above the text box, you can just press Control+V or right click and "Paste" from the menu that shows up. This will only work for one game; if you have multiple games, it would be better to just attach them to the post with the attachment option below the text box.

As an example: after downloading the PGN file attached to your post and pressing the "Copy Game" button in Chessbase, this is the result without PGN tags:

[Event "?"]
[Site "Centro-PC"]
[Date "2013.09.11"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Luis1"]
[Black "Luis2"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B04"]
[EventDate "2013.??.??"]
[Annotator "0.84;1.02"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[TimeControl "40/5400:20/1800:1800"]

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 g6 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bb3 Bg7 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7
9.Ne4 dxe5 10.dxe5 $5
    {irritating move}
*
Now, with PGN tags, it looks like this:


I hope this answers your question. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 529
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #9 - 04/06/16 at 18:14:54
Post Tools
cheese111: thanks

my apologies again but could you be more specific about
"paste" the pgn between the pgn tags ?!

I spend all day in front of a computer, even though ...

thanks again
  

irritating_line.pgn ( 0 KB | 33 Downloads )
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cheese111
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 27
Joined: 04/10/15
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #8 - 04/06/16 at 15:49:10
Post Tools
If you post the pgn using the method as I described above, that will create a game in the post. However, if you just want to attach the pgn without creating a game you can click the "Choose File" box next to attachment 1 under the text box and choose a pgn file from your computer.
To create a diagram, click the chessboard-icon next to the PGN button above the text box. This will insert the fen tags into your post. Then paste the FEN for the diagram position between those tags.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 529
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #7 - 04/06/16 at 09:02:26
Post Tools
cheese111 wrote on 04/06/16 at 03:03:28:
To post a pgn file, just click the PGN button above the text box. Then paste the pgn between the pgn tags.


Thanks. Would it be possible also for someone to inform or direct me for information on how to use KVChess 2.31 and how to post these nice diagrams and games in the posts. Was this discussed in the forum?

Thank you, Luis
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cheese111
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 27
Joined: 04/10/15
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #6 - 04/06/16 at 03:03:28
Post Tools
To post a pgn file, just click the PGN button above the text box. Then paste the pgn between the pgn tags.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 529
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #5 - 04/04/16 at 23:03:28
Post Tools
About 1 year ago i had some discussions with ludde (Ludvig Sandstrom) on this variation; as far as i recall, we agree with Tony that it is at least irritating. But it appears that 10...h6 is necessary, although after 11Nf6+ Kf8 12Qc3 the position appears weird for Black.

I have sanitized a long file I had with 10th alternative moves (I think Black is NOT ok).

Can someone tells me how to do add a pgn file,
or alternatively I can email it someone.

When possible, I will add analysis made at the same time with variants after 10....h6 and i think Black survives

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1678
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #4 - 04/04/16 at 19:03:15
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 04/04/16 at 09:33:12:
Black seems to have a knight to dig out of f6, a silly king/h8 rook and nothing in particular to hope for to compensate for it.

Yeah! I agree here. I think in general in similar lines Black is trying to argue that White's attack is premature and that the e-pawn is weak. But in this line White usually just stuffs the Bg7 with f4 and Black is just worse. Kind of a bummer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1905
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #3 - 04/04/16 at 09:33:12
Post Tools
Superficial I know, but I have to say that it looks hard to see why anyone would ever want to play the position after 11 Nf6+ Kf8.

Black seems to have a knight to dig out of f6, a silly king/h8 rook and nothing in particular to hope for to compensate for it.

The line that Rain played in that correspondence game at least got him castled with an extra pawn, so you can dream about good things happening if you somehow don't get checkmated!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cheese111
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 27
Joined: 04/10/15
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #2 - 04/04/16 at 02:19:15
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 04/03/16 at 22:03:21:
After 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 g6 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bb3 Bg7 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 9.Ne4 dxe5 the most popular move by far is 10.Bg5, but what about the simple 10.dxe5! instead? I see troubles here. Perhaps this has been covered on ChessPub before and I missed it, but what is the idea here for Black? To me,  10...h6 seems close to forced, but 11.Nf6+ Kf8 12.Qc3! simply looks good for White. Below are the only games to reach this position. Black saved the second, but what if 15.Qxd7! instead? I don't see enough compensation for Black after 15...Bxd7 16.f4 g5 17.g3 Nd4 18.Nd2, etc.



Indeed, this verdict was confirmed in 2012:



Previously the same player had tried 12...Nc6, but with no more success:

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lg
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 529
Location: Lisbon
Joined: 04/18/05
Gender: Male
Re: Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
Reply #1 - 04/04/16 at 00:02:08
Post Tools
Tony, I have been spending some time with this line and not sure why ignored in most literature (exception appears to be Marin's articles in chessbase magazine).
Agree with your assessment that it is, at least irritating
Agree that 10...h6 is forced. Perhaps you could also look at 12...Na6, controling both c7 and c5, but i still think that 12...Nc6 is playable and probably the line to spend time with.

I will try to post what i have when i have time
Below is a very recent game by Pavlov (taken today from the ICCF archives)

[Event "MT-Borzenko (RUS)"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2015.09.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Nekhaev, Andrey Ivanovich"]
[Black "Pavlov, Viktor Aleksandrovi"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2525"]
[BlackElo "2423"]
[PlyCount "119"]
[EventDate "2015.??.??"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 g6 5. Bc4 Nb6 6. Bb3 Bg7 7. Ng5 e6 8. Qf3
Qe7 9. Ne4 dxe5 10. dxe5 h6 11. Nf6+ Kf8 12. Qc3 Nc6 13. Be3 Nd7 14. Nxd7+ Qxd7
15. f4 b6 16. Ba4 Bb7 17. Nd2 Qd5 18. O-O-O Qa5 19. Qc4 Nb4 20. Bb3 Nd5 21. Qe2
Nxe3 22. Qxe3 Qc5 23. Qe2 Ke7 24. Rhe1 a5 25. Bc4 Rhd8 26. g3 Kf8 27. Nb3 Qe7
28. Nd4 Kg8 29. c3 Bf8 30. a4 Rd7 31. Bb5 Rd5 32. g4 c5 33. Nf3 Rxd1+ 34. Kxd1
Rd8+ 35. Kc2 Bd5 36. h3 Bg7 37. Qe3 Bf8 38. Rg1 c4 39. Qe2 Qb7 40. Nd2 Bc6 41.
Qxc4 Bxb5 42. axb5 Bc5 43. Rg3 Qh1 44. Rd3 Rxd3 45. Qxd3 Qh2 46. f5 gxf5 47.
Qd8+ Kg7 48. Qf6+ Kg8 49. gxf5 Qxh3 50. fxe6 Qxe6 51. Ne4 Qxf6 52. exf6 Bg1 53.
c4 Kh7 54. c5 bxc5 55. b6 Kg6 56. b7 Bh2 57. Nxc5 Kxf6 58. Na6 Ke6 59. b8=R
Bxb8 60. Nxb8 1/2-1/2

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1678
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Irritating Line in the 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 Alburt
04/03/16 at 22:03:21
Post Tools
After 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 g6 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bb3 Bg7 7.Ng5 e6 8.Qf3 Qe7 9.Ne4 dxe5 the most popular move by far is 10.Bg5, but what about the simple 10.dxe5! instead? I see troubles here. Perhaps this has been covered on ChessPub before and I missed it, but what is the idea here for Black? To me,  10...h6 seems close to forced, but 11.Nf6+ Kf8 12.Qc3! simply looks good for White. Below are the only games to reach this position. Black saved the second, but what if 15.Qxd7! instead? I don't see enough compensation for Black after 15...Bxd7 16.f4 g5 17.g3 Nd4 18.Nd2, etc.





Noted Alburt master, CC player Ricardo Ernesto Rain, was also dispatched relatively recently trying to deviate slightly earlier:



Thoughts?  Cry
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo