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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do (Read 5922 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #35 - 12/11/17 at 01:19:32
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Hello.

Yes. Thank you. Fabi's move order seems to have been a bit rare.

7...Nf6 avoids this 7...Ne5 8.Qg3 b5 9.a3 line very well. In terms of what it allows instead. 7...Nf6 8.Nxc6 maybe or 7...Nf6 8.0-0-0 Ne5 9.Qe2!? but arguably black won't mind much playing either of these.

Have a nice day.

Edit: and 7...Nf6 8.0-0-0 Ne5 9.Qe2 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bd2 b4 doesn't even look good at all for white.
  
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Ptero
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #34 - 12/10/17 at 20:00:48
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Pantu wrote on 12/10/17 at 19:41:25:
Ptero wrote on 12/10/17 at 16:55:19:
Hi

I think 9.a3 Bb7 10.Bxb5 Rc8! is thematic and gives strong play for the pawn.


Apologies if I got it wrong, but I suspect you are thinking of:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.O-O-O Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.a3 Bb7 11.Bxb5 Rc8! (which looks fine)

as

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Ne5 8.Qg3 b5 9.a3 Bb7 10.Bxb5 Rc8

is just lost after 11.Bf4 (no ...Nh5!)

In the meantime, my question would be why not use the move order in the first line (interpolating 7...Nf6 8.0-0-0 before 8...Ne5 9.Qg3 b5) as I can't see any downside to it but at least this a3 idea isn't as dangerous.


Ah, thanks for the clarification!
  
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Pantu
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #33 - 12/10/17 at 19:41:25
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Ptero wrote on 12/10/17 at 16:55:19:
Hi

I think 9.a3 Bb7 10.Bxb5 Rc8! is thematic and gives strong play for the pawn.


Apologies if I got it wrong, but I suspect you are thinking of:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.O-O-O Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.a3 Bb7 11.Bxb5 Rc8! (which looks fine)

as

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Ne5 8.Qg3 b5 9.a3 Bb7 10.Bxb5 Rc8

is just lost after 11.Bf4 (no ...Nh5!)

In the meantime, my question would be why not use the move order in the first line (interpolating 7...Nf6 8.0-0-0 before 8...Ne5 9.Qg3 b5) as I can't see any downside to it but at least this a3 idea isn't as dangerous.
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #32 - 12/10/17 at 16:55:19
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/10/17 at 12:22:04:
I'm thinking for example if 9...d6 10.f4 Nc4 11.Bxc4 bxc4 12.f5, while if the natural 9...Bb7 10.Bxb5!? looks interesting and if 9...Nf6 10.f4 should be fairly well timed. Some stuff to explore obviously, but as I wrote, there is some confrontation going on and this I find nice.

(shortly after posting)


Hi

I think 9.a3 Bb7 10.Bxb5 Rc8! is thematic and gives strong play for the pawn.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #31 - 12/10/17 at 12:22:04
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Hi.

Nice game from Fabiano and some praise to Ptero as well for noticing and sharing (maybe also with Super-GM forum lurkers) what looks like key points in making this black setup playable. Smiley

I can only add that with this:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Ne5 8.Qg3 b5 9.O-O-O Nf6 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bg1 h5
The combination of black being solid (now that a Nh6 will not just be out of play) and the positions often ending up static makes it a bit hard to find anything obviously good for white. So I fairly like this 11...h5.

And in the other line:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Ne5 8.Qg3 b5 9.O-O-O Nf6 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bd2 b4 12.Na4 h5
Looks to equalise eventually indeed (provided black plays accurately).

Basically, with these two lines in mind, 7...Ne5 8.Qg3 b5 looks like a serious setup.

I think that 11.Bg1 will probably get more explored eventually (It looks like the natural direction of investigation for the white players out there).

As for me I somewhat wonder if 9.a3!? is not a further possibility though. It looks unorthodox but if it is going to be good at any point it is going to be now, seeing that black has gone into a self pin and is generally not developed. Idea behind it is basically to stabilise the game somewhat and try to find out more about black's setup. Black probably should develop something after 9.a3 unless he wants to try something positionally double edged like 9...h5 or maybe the cagey 9...Rb8 and while I am essentially not sure how black is to play I will say that some confrontation at least, looks possible to get for white. Arguably welcome in principle.

I'm thinking for example if 9...d6 10.f4 Nc4 11.Bxc4 bxc4 12.f5, while if the natural 9...Bb7 10.Bxb5!? looks interesting and if 9...Nf6 10.f4 should be fairly well timed. Some stuff to explore obviously, but as I wrote, there is some confrontation going on and this I find nice.

Have a nice day.

Edit: textual clarity (shortly after posting)
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #30 - 12/05/17 at 20:13:26
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Ptero wrote on 11/19/17 at 14:11:39:
You can check this:
http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/4/jul17.htm
It is very complicated, of course, but black seems fine:

Oparin,Grigoriy (2605) - Najer,Evgeniy (2706) [B48]
RUS-ch Higher League 70th Sochi (2), 03.07.2017

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.0𢠢 Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bg1 h5 12.e5 b4 13.Nb1 Ne4 14.Qe1 Bb7 15.Nd2 Nxd2 16.Rxd2 g6 17.Kb1 Be7 18.Bd3 Nh6 19.Be4 Rd8 20.Bf2 Bxe4 21.Qxe4 d5 22.exd6 Rxd6 23.Qa8+ Rd8 24.Qxa6 00 25.Qe2 Ng4 26.Bg3 Ra8 27.Nb3 Bf6 28.Rhd1 Qc6 29.Nc1 Rfc8 30.h3 Nh6 31.Rd6 Qa4 32.Bf2 b3 33.cxb3 Rxc1+ 34.Kxc1 Qxa2 35.Bd4 Rc8+ 36.Kd2 Qa5+ 37.Ke3 Nf5+ 38.Kf2 Bh4+ 39.Kg1 Nxd6 40.Bc3 Qb6+

01



Fier,Alexandr (2581) - Leenhouts,Koen (2487) [B48]
Amsterdam Batavia Grolsch 9th Amsterdam (5), 28.02.2017

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.0𢠢 Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bg1 h5 12.e5 b4 13.Na4 Nd5 14.h3 Nh6 15.Bd3 g6 16.Be4 Bb7 17.Qf3 Nf5? (17...Rc8! 18.g4? Nf5!!=+) 18.Nxf5 gxf5 19.Bxd5 Bxd5 20.Rxd5! exd5 21.Nb6 Rb8 22.Nxd5 Qc6 23.Bf2 Be7 24.Rd1 a5 25.Qd3 a4 26.Nxe7 Kxe7 27.Qxf5 b3 28.axb3 axb3 29.Rxd7+

10



Guess I can now add:
[Event "London Chess Classic"]
[Site "chess24.com"]
[Date "2017.12.05"]
[Round "4.3"]
[White "Karjakin, Sergey"]
[Black "Caruana, Fabiano"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2760"]
[BlackElo "2799"]
[PlyCount "84"]
[EventDate "2017.??.??"]
[WhiteTeam "Russia"]
[BlackTeam "United States"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "RUS"]
[BlackTeamCountry "USA"]
[WhiteClock "1:01:16"]
[BlackClock "0:59:00"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6 7. Qf3 Ne5 8.
Qg3 b5 9. O-O-O Nf6 10. f4 Neg4 11. Bg1 h5 12. e5 b4 13. Na4 Nd5 14. Nb3 Bb7
15. Nac5 Bc6 16. Ne4 f5 17. h3 h4 18. Qe1 fxe4 19. hxg4 Nxf4 20. Rxh4 Rxh4 21.
Qxh4 Qxe5 22. Bd4 Ng6 23. Qh3 Qg5+ 24. Kb1 Bd5 25. Bg1 Be7 26. g3 Ne5 27. Be2
Nf3 28. Bxf3 exf3 29. Bd4 Kf7 30. Nc1 d6 31. Nd3 e5 32. Bf2 Be6 33. Nxb4 e4 34.
Qh1 Rc8 35. Nxa6 Qa5 36. Qh5+ Qxh5 37. gxh5 Bg5 38. Re1 Bc4 39. Nb4 Re8 40. Re3
Bxe3 41. Bxe3 Re5 42. g4 Rg5 0-1

  
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bragesjo
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #29 - 11/21/17 at 07:32:35
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While I dont have much to add in terms of moves, "Dismantling the Sicilian" basically quates "Attacking the flexbible Sicilian" in this particullar sub variation.
  
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Ptero
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #28 - 11/20/17 at 08:22:32
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MNb wrote on 11/20/17 at 07:23:05:
In that second game Kotronias and Semkov think 17...Rc8 should be answered with 18.Kb1 Nf5 19.Bf2.

Indeed. Now I think is the correct moment to play 19...h4! Seems to me white needs to be a little accurate to keep equal, because of his Na4 issue
  
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MNb
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #27 - 11/20/17 at 07:23:05
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In that second game Kotronias and Semkov think 17...Rc8 should be answered with 18.Kb1 Nf5 19.Bf2.
  

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Ptero
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #26 - 11/19/17 at 14:11:39
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You can check this:
http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/4/jul17.htm
It is very complicated, of course, but black seems fine:

Oparin,Grigoriy (2605) - Najer,Evgeniy (2706) [B48]
RUS-ch Higher League 70th Sochi (2), 03.07.2017

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.0𢠢 Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bg1 h5 12.e5 b4 13.Nb1 Ne4 14.Qe1 Bb7 15.Nd2 Nxd2 16.Rxd2 g6 17.Kb1 Be7 18.Bd3 Nh6 19.Be4 Rd8 20.Bf2 Bxe4 21.Qxe4 d5 22.exd6 Rxd6 23.Qa8+ Rd8 24.Qxa6 00 25.Qe2 Ng4 26.Bg3 Ra8 27.Nb3 Bf6 28.Rhd1 Qc6 29.Nc1 Rfc8 30.h3 Nh6 31.Rd6 Qa4 32.Bf2 b3 33.cxb3 Rxc1+ 34.Kxc1 Qxa2 35.Bd4 Rc8+ 36.Kd2 Qa5+ 37.Ke3 Nf5+ 38.Kf2 Bh4+ 39.Kg1 Nxd6 40.Bc3 Qb6+

01



Fier,Alexandr (2581) - Leenhouts,Koen (2487) [B48]
Amsterdam Batavia Grolsch 9th Amsterdam (5), 28.02.2017

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.0𢠢 Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bg1 h5 12.e5 b4 13.Na4 Nd5 14.h3 Nh6 15.Bd3 g6 16.Be4 Bb7 17.Qf3 Nf5? (17...Rc8! 18.g4? Nf5!!=+) 18.Nxf5 gxf5 19.Bxd5 Bxd5 20.Rxd5! exd5 21.Nb6 Rb8 22.Nxd5 Qc6 23.Bf2 Be7 24.Rd1 a5 25.Qd3 a4 26.Nxe7 Kxe7 27.Qxf5 b3 28.axb3 axb3 29.Rxd7+

10

  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #25 - 11/19/17 at 13:46:38
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Hi.

Ptero wrote on 11/19/17 at 10:53:46:
After
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.0𢠢 Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bd2
Is considered promising for white according to Kotronias/Semkov and other sources (it seems black gets a fully playable game after 11.Bg1).
I Suggest:
11...b4 12.Na4 and now the novelty 12...h5N
If 13.Bd3 d5 14.e5 Ne4 15.Bxe4 dxe4 16.h3 (16.b3 Bd7 appears OK for black) 16......Nh6 17.Bxb4 17...Bxb4 18.Qxg7 Rf8 19.Qxh6 Bd7
Now the computers are giving some crazy lines, both with 20.f5 or 20.a3, but all ultimately reach 0.00
If this stands than this can be a completely playable answer to 7Qf3 Any thoughts?

Fine stuff. White has some initiative after 20.f5 but black seems to hold it together fairly well.

Any reason for dismissing 11.Bg1 though? Looks both more natural and also fairly problematic for black to face imo.

Have a nice day.

  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #24 - 11/19/17 at 10:53:46
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After
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.0𢠢 Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bd2
Is considered promising for white according to Kotronias/Semkov and other sources (it seems black gets a fully playable game after 11.Bg1).
I Suggest:
11...b4 12.Na4 and now the novelty 12...h5N
If 13.Bd3 d5 14.e5 Ne4 15.Bxe4 dxe4 16.h3 (16.b3 Bd7 appears OK for black) 16......Nh6 17.Bxb4 17...Bxb4 18.Qxg7 Rf8 19.Qxh6 Bd7
Now the computers are giving some crazy lines, both with 20.f5 or 20.a3, but all ultimately reach 0.00
If this stands than this can be a completely playable answer to 7Qf3 Any thoughts?

  
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MNb
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #23 - 06/27/17 at 16:58:19
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Perhaps that's why Kotronias and Semkov rather recommend 7.f4.
  

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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #22 - 06/27/17 at 14:19:56
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Players of the Black pieces can also consider the move order



, which is a favorite of mine.  Now I presume that 7.Qf3 Bb4! should be fine for Black in a very Taimanov-like way.
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #21 - 03/15/17 at 16:25:58
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Regarding 8...Qxc6,

A) 9 Be2!?N looks interesting, keeping the King flexible, and dissuading a quick ...Nf6 and ...b5 (because of e4-e5)

B) 9 Bd3 Nf6 10 Qg3 b5 11 f3 seems a bit better for White. I guess the argument is that, compared to the normal Third Rank System, it's harder for Black to finish development, and he lacks the ...Bc5 equalizer he'd normally have in reply to f2-f3.
After 11...Be7 (Nepomniachtchi-Movsesian, 2015), the computer spits out the improvement 12 e5! dxe5 13 Ne4! Nh5 (13...Nd5 14 Qxg6) 14 Qxe5 +/=.

Regarding the Kan line, I've only briefly looked into it, but it seems Black can benefit from playing 6...d6! and later deploying his Knight to d7 rather than c6. Still interesting though.
  
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