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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do (Read 2209 times)
mn
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #21 - 03/15/17 at 16:25:58
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Regarding 8...Qxc6,

A) 9 Be2!?N looks interesting, keeping the King flexible, and dissuading a quick ...Nf6 and ...b5 (because of e4-e5)

B) 9 Bd3 Nf6 10 Qg3 b5 11 f3 seems a bit better for White. I guess the argument is that, compared to the normal Third Rank System, it's harder for Black to finish development, and he lacks the ...Bc5 equalizer he'd normally have in reply to f2-f3.
After 11...Be7 (Nepomniachtchi-Movsesian, 2015), the computer spits out the improvement 12 e5! dxe5 13 Ne4! Nh5 (13...Nd5 14 Qxg6) 14 Qxe5 +/=.

Regarding the Kan line, I've only briefly looked into it, but it seems Black can benefit from playing 6...d6! and later deploying his Knight to d7 rather than c6. Still interesting though.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #20 - 03/15/17 at 04:47:54
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Hi.

So how do you continue as white after 8...Qxc6? Smiley
(1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Qf3 d6 8.Nxc6 Qxc6)

I am actually a bit excited to try 7.Qf3 at some point. This looks like a fairly easy system to combat at least the Taimanov. Guess it shouldn't be relevant against the Kan though. Cry
Edit: Against the Kan maybe 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Qf3!? is decent enough. Huh

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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #19 - 03/13/17 at 05:12:40
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Morning.

mn wrote on 03/10/17 at 18:07:49:
Yeah, I agree that seems fine for Black. It looks like if Black delays castling the immediate h5-h6 isn't so convincing. Maybe, therefore, White should first play a couple of prophylactic moves and leave h5-h6 in the air; e.g. 13 Kb1 Be6 14 Bc1, secure the Queenside, and then look around:

This or possibly 13.h5 Be6 14.f3!? Even if it's not immediately obvious that white has anything in many of the variations black never seems entirely comfortable either (king problems mainly).

mn wrote on 03/10/17 at 18:07:49:
C) 14...Qa5! 15 b3 (...Nxe4 was the threat) 15...c5 16 Bb2 (16 Bd2!? Qa3 17 Nd5!? is maybe something?) 16...c4 17 Nd5 (17 Qxg7 Rg8 18 Qh6 Rxg2 19 Qe3 Qb6 looks close to equal) 17...Bxd5 18 exd5 cxb3 19 axb3 0-0 20 f4 Ne4 21 Qe3 might be something for White - certainly not clear at all.

The continuation with 21.Qe3 seemed relatively speaking most clear. Here white achieves some very minor advantage. This is nice in some ways of course though winning prospects do look quite minimal.

16.Bd2 Is interesting indeed. It does look like black gets time to work up some queenside pressure though, so I doubt it is the optimal way of playing.
16.Bg5 Looks like nothing.

16.Bb2 c4 17.Qe3!? I checked somewhat as well. Looks like black can sacrifice his way to an OK position though.

So all in all white has many tries and yea... black has to show precision. Some analysis:



Have a nice day.
  
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mn
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #18 - 03/10/17 at 18:07:49
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/10/17 at 11:25:53:
Hi.

mn wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:03:54:
The straightfoward 11 h4 seemed annoying (e.g. 11...Rb8 12 0-0-0 0-0 13 h5 Ne8 14 h6 g6 15 Kb1 followed perhaps by Ka1, and eventually f4-f5)
Looks quite nice for white. Maybe:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Qf3 d6 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.Qg3 Nf6 10.Be2 Be7 11.h4 Rb8 12.0-0-0 e5!?
could be better though. Idea should be something like:
13.h5 Be6 14.h6!? g5!?
14...g6 also possible

With not obviously such a threatening position for white.



Yeah, I agree that seems fine for Black. It looks like if Black delays castling the immediate h5-h6 isn't so convincing. Maybe, therefore, White should first play a couple of prophylactic moves and leave h5-h6 in the air; e.g. 13 Kb1 Be6 14 Bc1, secure the Queenside, and then look around:

A) 14...0-0 15 h5 etc. is similar to above, pleasant for White IMO.
B) 14...d5 can lead to strange complications after 15 f4!, e.g. 15...d4 16 f5 dxc3?! (16...Bxf5 17 Rxd4! Be6 18 h5 +/=) 17 fxe6 cxb2?! (17...Nxe4 18 Qf3 f6 19 b3 Nd6 20 Qxc3 looks scary for Black) 18 exf7+ Kf8 (A picturesque position) - and now the computer gives 19 Bg5! with a nearly winning position - it does indeed look like Black's attack is dead and White's is just beginning.
C) 14...Qa5! 15 b3 (...Nxe4 was the threat) 15...c5 16 Bb2 (16 Bd2!? Qa3 17 Nd5!? is maybe something?) 16...c4 17 Nd5 (17 Qxg7 Rg8 18 Qh6 Rxg2 19 Qe3 Qb6 looks close to equal) 17...Bxd5 18 exd5 cxb3 19 axb3 0-0 20 f4 Ne4 21 Qe3 might be something for White - certainly not clear at all.

  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #17 - 03/10/17 at 11:25:53
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Hi.

mn wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:03:54:
The straightfoward 11 h4 seemed annoying (e.g. 11...Rb8 12 0-0-0 0-0 13 h5 Ne8 14 h6 g6 15 Kb1 followed perhaps by Ka1, and eventually f4-f5)
Looks quite nice for white. Maybe:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Qf3 d6 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.Qg3 Nf6 10.Be2 Be7 11.h4 Rb8 12.0-0-0 e5!?
could be better though. Idea should be something like:
13.h5 Be6 14.h6!? g5!?
14...g6 also possible

With not obviously such a threatening position for white.


As for white ideas I'm thinking you can also go for something like:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Qf3 d6 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.Be2
Actually 9.0-0-0 followed by any reasonable move for black and then 10.g4 is possibly a small refinement.
9...Nf6 10.0-0-0 Be7
The Van Kampen setup. 10...Rb8 would probably make some minor difference although white can still quite possibly just continue in the same manner.
11.g4 d5!? 12.g5 Nd7 13.h4 Bd6 14.Kb1
With a sort of double edged position.

Have a nice day.
  
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mn
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #16 - 03/09/17 at 23:03:54
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The straightfoward 11 h4 seemed annoying (e.g. 11...Rb8 12 0-0-0 0-0 13 h5 Ne8 14 h6 g6 15 Kb1 followed perhaps by Ka1, and eventually f4-f5)
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #15 - 03/09/17 at 20:36:36
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mn wrote on 03/09/17 at 05:43:04:
Based on the work I've done on the 7...d6 line with computers, it looked like Black was comfortable everywhere except 8 Nxc6!. Can anyone explain (in words) why this move makes sense and is so effective?

Which are you concrete lines on this after 8...bxc6 ?
9. Qg3 Nf6 10. Be2 Be7!? is van Kempen's line, e.g. and seems ok for Black, no?
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #14 - 03/09/17 at 15:22:28
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Hi.

mn wrote on 03/09/17 at 05:43:04:
Based on the work I've done on the 7...d6 line with computers, it looked like Black was comfortable everywhere except 8 Nxc6!. Can anyone explain (in words) why this move makes sense and is so effective?

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Qf3 d6 8.Nxc6
I'm thinking that if 8...bxc6 we get a change to a structure where black has to be a whole lot more careful positionally compared to if his pawn was still on b7. Arguably, after the pawn capture white could potentially already have some positional advantage and this would constitute a nice positive also.

After 8...Qxc6 on the other hand. Firstly black has just made another queen move which can't really be a desirable type of move to make in the position. Secondly black's pieces are both undeveloped and will not really threaten much if they develop, in other words white has a more or less free time to finish development and presumably start working up some pressure.
Also notable is that black's natural way of developing his light square bishop is to go b7-b5 and put it on b7. In simple terms this is another pawn move at a time when black already has a skewed relationship in the type of moves he has chosen (5 pawn moves, 3 queen moves and 1 light piece move is my count). In my limited understanding at some point you should mix in some other types of moves (e.g. light piece developments) in order to sort of even up this self made imbalance in your own position. Only problem at the moment though seems to be that you don't really have that many (to my eyes) attractive squares to develop your light pieces to.

In other words. Black has played to creatively, is behind in development and has limited prospects Grin.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #13 - 03/09/17 at 09:57:01
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It must be some very concrete reasons and not words surely? Looks pretty anti positional in general terms.
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #12 - 03/09/17 at 05:43:04
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Based on the work I've done on the 7...d6 line with computers, it looked like Black was comfortable everywhere except 8 Nxc6!. Can anyone explain (in words) why this move makes sense and is so effective?
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #11 - 03/08/17 at 15:33:27
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Paddy wrote on 03/08/17 at 13:09:00:
Paddy wrote on 01/01/17 at 18:20:21:
I thought I'd give this thread a bump. Not long ago the Taimanov really was appearing to be "The Safest Sicilian" but in 2015-16 it seems to have been under some pressure from more than one direction (including Vallejo's 6 Qd3, which has scored surprisingly well for White).

The 7 Qf3 line continued to be quite popular throughout 2016 but I am not aware of any consensus yet having been formed as to Black's best line against it.

"The Taimanov Bible" (Ivanisevic, Perunovic & Markus, 2016) offers two lines:
7....Bd6 and 7...d6 (also endorsed by van Kampen at chess24).

In 2016 Ivanisevic and Perunovic each played just one reported game with 7...d6 (one win, one loss). In December 2016 this was also the choice (1 game) of Potkin, a Taimanov guru, although earlier in the year he had drawn with 7...Bd6 against Safarli (2663).

Overall in 2016 in games between 2400+ rated players, 7...d6 was played only 18 times, scoring a respectable 48.2%. In comparison, 7...Bd6 was more popular (82 games between 2400+ rated) but scored only 41.5%.

So, from the above it seems hard to draw any firm conclusions.

Ideas, opinions and (hopefully) analysis welcome!



Update:
I notice:
1) Black still seems to be struggling to counter the Qf3 line. Results in 2017 so far have been poor, with White scoring over 65%.
2) Some previously committed Taimanov players seem to have been deserting the cause.
3) There is still no sign of a reliable line which either equalises or provides serious counterplay.
4) and, last but not least, there is now extensive analysis to support White's cause in the recent book "Attacking the Flexible Sicilian" by Kotronias & Semkov.

So all rather depressing for Taimanov fans.

Can anyone out there provide some more cheering news?


At least it's only a small pull for White.

Well, the Paulsen (4...a6) is also +0.3, so it's not easy to be an 2...e6 guy these days. However, the Sveshnikov and Najdorf are very tough to prove even +0.2 against, so maybe you can add one of them to your repertoire.


  

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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #10 - 03/08/17 at 13:09:00
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Paddy wrote on 01/01/17 at 18:20:21:
I thought I'd give this thread a bump. Not long ago the Taimanov really was appearing to be "The Safest Sicilian" but in 2015-16 it seems to have been under some pressure from more than one direction (including Vallejo's 6 Qd3, which has scored surprisingly well for White).

The 7 Qf3 line continued to be quite popular throughout 2016 but I am not aware of any consensus yet having been formed as to Black's best line against it.

"The Taimanov Bible" (Ivanisevic, Perunovic & Markus, 2016) offers two lines:
7....Bd6 and 7...d6 (also endorsed by van Kampen at chess24).

In 2016 Ivanisevic and Perunovic each played just one reported game with 7...d6 (one win, one loss). In December 2016 this was also the choice (1 game) of Potkin, a Taimanov guru, although earlier in the year he had drawn with 7...Bd6 against Safarli (2663).

Overall in 2016 in games between 2400+ rated players, 7...d6 was played only 18 times, scoring a respectable 48.2%. In comparison, 7...Bd6 was more popular (82 games between 2400+ rated) but scored only 41.5%.

So, from the above it seems hard to draw any firm conclusions.

Ideas, opinions and (hopefully) analysis welcome!



Update:
I notice:
1) Black still seems to be struggling to counter the Qf3 line. Results in 2017 so far have been poor, with White scoring over 65%.
2) Some previously committed Taimanov players seem to have been deserting the cause.
3) There is still no sign of a reliable line which either equalises or provides serious counterplay.
4) and, last but not least, there is now extensive analysis to support White's cause in the recent book "Attacking the Flexible Sicilian" by Kotronias & Semkov.

So all rather depressing for Taimanov fans.

Can anyone out there provide some more cheering news?
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #9 - 01/01/17 at 18:20:21
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I thought I'd give this thread a bump. Not long ago the Taimanov really was appearing to be "The Safest Sicilian" but in 2015-16 it seems to have been under some pressure from more than one direction (including Vallejo's 6 Qd3, which has scored surprisingly well for White).

The 7 Qf3 line continued to be quite popular throughout 2016 but I am not aware of any consensus yet having been formed as to Black's best line against it.

"The Taimanov Bible" (Ivanisevic, Perunovic & Markus, 2016) offers two lines:
7....Bd6 and 7...d6 (also endorsed by van Kampen at chess24).

In 2016 Ivanisevic and Perunovic each played just one reported game with 7...d6 (one win, one loss). In December 2016 this was also the choice (1 game) of Potkin, a Taimanov guru, although earlier in the year he had drawn with 7...Bd6 against Safarli (2663).

Overall in 2016 in games between 2400+ rated players, 7...d6 was played only 18 times, scoring a respectable 48.2%. In comparison, 7...Bd6 was more popular (82 games between 2400+ rated) but scored only 41.5%.

So, from the above it seems hard to draw any firm conclusions.

Ideas, opinions and (hopefully) analysis welcome!

  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #8 - 04/28/16 at 19:25:11
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Whoops, sorry was going to write his line down but I forgot.

It is 7. Qf3 Ne5 8. Qg3 h5.



  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #7 - 04/28/16 at 18:36:23
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What is Giri's line?
  
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