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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do (Read 9558 times)
MNb
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #27 - 11/20/17 at 07:23:05
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In that second game Kotronias and Semkov think 17...Rc8 should be answered with 18.Kb1 Nf5 19.Bf2.
  

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Ptero
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #26 - 11/19/17 at 14:11:39
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You can check this:
http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/4/jul17.htm
It is very complicated, of course, but black seems fine:

Oparin,Grigoriy (2605) - Najer,Evgeniy (2706) [B48]
RUS-ch Higher League 70th Sochi (2), 03.07.2017

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.0𢠢 Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bg1 h5 12.e5 b4 13.Nb1 Ne4 14.Qe1 Bb7 15.Nd2 Nxd2 16.Rxd2 g6 17.Kb1 Be7 18.Bd3 Nh6 19.Be4 Rd8 20.Bf2 Bxe4 21.Qxe4 d5 22.exd6 Rxd6 23.Qa8+ Rd8 24.Qxa6 00 25.Qe2 Ng4 26.Bg3 Ra8 27.Nb3 Bf6 28.Rhd1 Qc6 29.Nc1 Rfc8 30.h3 Nh6 31.Rd6 Qa4 32.Bf2 b3 33.cxb3 Rxc1+ 34.Kxc1 Qxa2 35.Bd4 Rc8+ 36.Kd2 Qa5+ 37.Ke3 Nf5+ 38.Kf2 Bh4+ 39.Kg1 Nxd6 40.Bc3 Qb6+

01



Fier,Alexandr (2581) - Leenhouts,Koen (2487) [B48]
Amsterdam Batavia Grolsch 9th Amsterdam (5), 28.02.2017

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.0𢠢 Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bg1 h5 12.e5 b4 13.Na4 Nd5 14.h3 Nh6 15.Bd3 g6 16.Be4 Bb7 17.Qf3 Nf5? (17...Rc8! 18.g4? Nf5!!=+) 18.Nxf5 gxf5 19.Bxd5 Bxd5 20.Rxd5! exd5 21.Nb6 Rb8 22.Nxd5 Qc6 23.Bf2 Be7 24.Rd1 a5 25.Qd3 a4 26.Nxe7 Kxe7 27.Qxf5 b3 28.axb3 axb3 29.Rxd7+

10

  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #25 - 11/19/17 at 13:46:38
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Hi.

Ptero wrote on 11/19/17 at 10:53:46:
After
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.0𢠢 Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bd2
Is considered promising for white according to Kotronias/Semkov and other sources (it seems black gets a fully playable game after 11.Bg1).
I Suggest:
11...b4 12.Na4 and now the novelty 12...h5N
If 13.Bd3 d5 14.e5 Ne4 15.Bxe4 dxe4 16.h3 (16.b3 Bd7 appears OK for black) 16......Nh6 17.Bxb4 17...Bxb4 18.Qxg7 Rf8 19.Qxh6 Bd7
Now the computers are giving some crazy lines, both with 20.f5 or 20.a3, but all ultimately reach 0.00
If this stands than this can be a completely playable answer to 7Qf3 Any thoughts?

Fine stuff. White has some initiative after 20.f5 but black seems to hold it together fairly well.

Any reason for dismissing 11.Bg1 though? Looks both more natural and also fairly problematic for black to face imo.

Have a nice day.

  
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Ptero
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #24 - 11/19/17 at 10:53:46
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After
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3 Nf6 8.0𢠢 Ne5 9.Qg3 b5 10.f4 Neg4 11.Bd2
Is considered promising for white according to Kotronias/Semkov and other sources (it seems black gets a fully playable game after 11.Bg1).
I Suggest:
11...b4 12.Na4 and now the novelty 12...h5N
If 13.Bd3 d5 14.e5 Ne4 15.Bxe4 dxe4 16.h3 (16.b3 Bd7 appears OK for black) 16......Nh6 17.Bxb4 17...Bxb4 18.Qxg7 Rf8 19.Qxh6 Bd7
Now the computers are giving some crazy lines, both with 20.f5 or 20.a3, but all ultimately reach 0.00
If this stands than this can be a completely playable answer to 7Qf3 Any thoughts?

  
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MNb
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #23 - 06/27/17 at 16:58:19
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Perhaps that's why Kotronias and Semkov rather recommend 7.f4.
  

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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #22 - 06/27/17 at 14:19:56
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Players of the Black pieces can also consider the move order



, which is a favorite of mine.  Now I presume that 7.Qf3 Bb4! should be fine for Black in a very Taimanov-like way.
  
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mn
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #21 - 03/15/17 at 16:25:58
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Regarding 8...Qxc6,

A) 9 Be2!?N looks interesting, keeping the King flexible, and dissuading a quick ...Nf6 and ...b5 (because of e4-e5)

B) 9 Bd3 Nf6 10 Qg3 b5 11 f3 seems a bit better for White. I guess the argument is that, compared to the normal Third Rank System, it's harder for Black to finish development, and he lacks the ...Bc5 equalizer he'd normally have in reply to f2-f3.
After 11...Be7 (Nepomniachtchi-Movsesian, 2015), the computer spits out the improvement 12 e5! dxe5 13 Ne4! Nh5 (13...Nd5 14 Qxg6) 14 Qxe5 +/=.

Regarding the Kan line, I've only briefly looked into it, but it seems Black can benefit from playing 6...d6! and later deploying his Knight to d7 rather than c6. Still interesting though.
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #20 - 03/15/17 at 04:47:54
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Hi.

So how do you continue as white after 8...Qxc6? Smiley
(1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Qf3 d6 8.Nxc6 Qxc6)

I am actually a bit excited to try 7.Qf3 at some point. This looks like a fairly easy system to combat at least the Taimanov. Guess it shouldn't be relevant against the Kan though. Cry
Edit: Against the Kan maybe 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Qf3!? is decent enough. Huh

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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #19 - 03/13/17 at 05:12:40
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Morning.

mn wrote on 03/10/17 at 18:07:49:
Yeah, I agree that seems fine for Black. It looks like if Black delays castling the immediate h5-h6 isn't so convincing. Maybe, therefore, White should first play a couple of prophylactic moves and leave h5-h6 in the air; e.g. 13 Kb1 Be6 14 Bc1, secure the Queenside, and then look around:

This or possibly 13.h5 Be6 14.f3!? Even if it's not immediately obvious that white has anything in many of the variations black never seems entirely comfortable either (king problems mainly).

mn wrote on 03/10/17 at 18:07:49:
C) 14...Qa5! 15 b3 (...Nxe4 was the threat) 15...c5 16 Bb2 (16 Bd2!? Qa3 17 Nd5!? is maybe something?) 16...c4 17 Nd5 (17 Qxg7 Rg8 18 Qh6 Rxg2 19 Qe3 Qb6 looks close to equal) 17...Bxd5 18 exd5 cxb3 19 axb3 0-0 20 f4 Ne4 21 Qe3 might be something for White - certainly not clear at all.

The continuation with 21.Qe3 seemed relatively speaking most clear. Here white achieves some very minor advantage. This is nice in some ways of course though winning prospects do look quite minimal.

16.Bd2 Is interesting indeed. It does look like black gets time to work up some queenside pressure though, so I doubt it is the optimal way of playing.
16.Bg5 Looks like nothing.

16.Bb2 c4 17.Qe3!? I checked somewhat as well. Looks like black can sacrifice his way to an OK position though.

So all in all white has many tries and yea... black has to show precision. Some analysis:



Have a nice day.
  
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mn
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #18 - 03/10/17 at 18:07:49
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/10/17 at 11:25:53:
Hi.

mn wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:03:54:
The straightfoward 11 h4 seemed annoying (e.g. 11...Rb8 12 0-0-0 0-0 13 h5 Ne8 14 h6 g6 15 Kb1 followed perhaps by Ka1, and eventually f4-f5)
Looks quite nice for white. Maybe:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Qf3 d6 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.Qg3 Nf6 10.Be2 Be7 11.h4 Rb8 12.0-0-0 e5!?
could be better though. Idea should be something like:
13.h5 Be6 14.h6!? g5!?
14...g6 also possible

With not obviously such a threatening position for white.



Yeah, I agree that seems fine for Black. It looks like if Black delays castling the immediate h5-h6 isn't so convincing. Maybe, therefore, White should first play a couple of prophylactic moves and leave h5-h6 in the air; e.g. 13 Kb1 Be6 14 Bc1, secure the Queenside, and then look around:

A) 14...0-0 15 h5 etc. is similar to above, pleasant for White IMO.
B) 14...d5 can lead to strange complications after 15 f4!, e.g. 15...d4 16 f5 dxc3?! (16...Bxf5 17 Rxd4! Be6 18 h5 +/=) 17 fxe6 cxb2?! (17...Nxe4 18 Qf3 f6 19 b3 Nd6 20 Qxc3 looks scary for Black) 18 exf7+ Kf8 (A picturesque position) - and now the computer gives 19 Bg5! with a nearly winning position - it does indeed look like Black's attack is dead and White's is just beginning.
C) 14...Qa5! 15 b3 (...Nxe4 was the threat) 15...c5 16 Bb2 (16 Bd2!? Qa3 17 Nd5!? is maybe something?) 16...c4 17 Nd5 (17 Qxg7 Rg8 18 Qh6 Rxg2 19 Qe3 Qb6 looks close to equal) 17...Bxd5 18 exd5 cxb3 19 axb3 0-0 20 f4 Ne4 21 Qe3 might be something for White - certainly not clear at all.

  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #17 - 03/10/17 at 11:25:53
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Hi.

mn wrote on 03/09/17 at 23:03:54:
The straightfoward 11 h4 seemed annoying (e.g. 11...Rb8 12 0-0-0 0-0 13 h5 Ne8 14 h6 g6 15 Kb1 followed perhaps by Ka1, and eventually f4-f5)
Looks quite nice for white. Maybe:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Qf3 d6 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.Qg3 Nf6 10.Be2 Be7 11.h4 Rb8 12.0-0-0 e5!?
could be better though. Idea should be something like:
13.h5 Be6 14.h6!? g5!?
14...g6 also possible

With not obviously such a threatening position for white.


As for white ideas I'm thinking you can also go for something like:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Qf3 d6 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.Be2
Actually 9.0-0-0 followed by any reasonable move for black and then 10.g4 is possibly a small refinement.
9...Nf6 10.0-0-0 Be7
The Van Kampen setup. 10...Rb8 would probably make some minor difference although white can still quite possibly just continue in the same manner.
11.g4 d5!? 12.g5 Nd7 13.h4 Bd6 14.Kb1
With a sort of double edged position.

Have a nice day.
  
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mn
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #16 - 03/09/17 at 23:03:54
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The straightfoward 11 h4 seemed annoying (e.g. 11...Rb8 12 0-0-0 0-0 13 h5 Ne8 14 h6 g6 15 Kb1 followed perhaps by Ka1, and eventually f4-f5)
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #15 - 03/09/17 at 20:36:36
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mn wrote on 03/09/17 at 05:43:04:
Based on the work I've done on the 7...d6 line with computers, it looked like Black was comfortable everywhere except 8 Nxc6!. Can anyone explain (in words) why this move makes sense and is so effective?

Which are you concrete lines on this after 8...bxc6 ?
9. Qg3 Nf6 10. Be2 Be7!? is van Kempen's line, e.g. and seems ok for Black, no?
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #14 - 03/09/17 at 15:22:28
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Hi.

mn wrote on 03/09/17 at 05:43:04:
Based on the work I've done on the 7...d6 line with computers, it looked like Black was comfortable everywhere except 8 Nxc6!. Can anyone explain (in words) why this move makes sense and is so effective?

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 Qc7 7.Qf3 d6 8.Nxc6
I'm thinking that if 8...bxc6 we get a change to a structure where black has to be a whole lot more careful positionally compared to if his pawn was still on b7. Arguably, after the pawn capture white could potentially already have some positional advantage and this would constitute a nice positive also.

After 8...Qxc6 on the other hand. Firstly black has just made another queen move which can't really be a desirable type of move to make in the position. Secondly black's pieces are both undeveloped and will not really threaten much if they develop, in other words white has a more or less free time to finish development and presumably start working up some pressure.
Also notable is that black's natural way of developing his light square bishop is to go b7-b5 and put it on b7. In simple terms this is another pawn move at a time when black already has a skewed relationship in the type of moves he has chosen (5 pawn moves, 3 queen moves and 1 light piece move is my count). In my limited understanding at some point you should mix in some other types of moves (e.g. light piece developments) in order to sort of even up this self made imbalance in your own position. Only problem at the moment though seems to be that you don't really have that many (to my eyes) attractive squares to develop your light pieces to.

In other words. Black has played to creatively, is behind in development and has limited prospects Grin.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 7. Qf3 -- What can Black do
Reply #13 - 03/09/17 at 09:57:01
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It must be some very concrete reasons and not words surely? Looks pretty anti positional in general terms.
  
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