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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies (Read 17284 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #49 - 01/23/18 at 06:45:43
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Hi.

MNb wrote on 01/23/18 at 00:07:37:
-8...Be6 9.a3 b5 10.Kb1 b4 11.axb4 Qxb4 12.Bxg7 Kxg7 13.e5 Häusler-Kreutz, corr ICCF 2011.

I was mildly impressed by how easily black got a good game with this 8...Be6 in the corr game you mentioned:



Black had easy equality at several points despite the end result. Sadly though 9.h4 looks considerably stronger so I would still stay away from 8...Be6. Cry

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #48 - 01/23/18 at 00:07:37
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/19/18 at 11:18:04:
maybe 5...Qa5!? could be an ok fallback option. Black should be able to win a tempo against the f4 bishop with e7-e5 at some point if white plays calmly. He doesn't have to and can play stuff like Bc4 and 0-0-0 which may give some chances but even here black is generally not straddled with positions that look so bad to my eyes.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5 6.Nf3 Bg7

6...Nbd7 7.e5 dxe5 8.dxe5 Ng4 Gavrivlov-Tseshkovsky. St. Peterburg 2003 and Rybka likes 9.e6!?

7.O-O-O O-O
-7...Nbd7 (never been played) 8.Bh6 (back to the 150-Attack) Bxh6 9.Qxh6 e5? 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Bc4 with a decisive advantage due to the weakness of f7.
-7...b5 8.e5 dxe5 9.dxe5 Nh5 10.Nxb5 (Rybka likes 10.Bg5 better) Qxd2+ 11.Bxd2 cxb5 12.Bxb5+ (analysis in Fernschach) Bd7 13.Bxd7+ Nxd7 14.g4 and White wins the piece back with good play.
-7...Bg4 8.h3 Bxf3 9.gxf3 Nbd7 10.Kb1 with promising play due to the bishop pair, reminiscent to the 150-Attack.
-7...Be6 8.a3 (8.Kb1? Nxe4!) eg b5 9.Kb1 b4 10.axb4 Qxb4 11.e5 and Black's "attack" didn't go anywhere.

8.Bh6 Bg4
-8...Nbd7 9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.e5 Dunnington-Kleinschmidt, Biel 1992.
-8...Be6 9.a3 b5 10.Kb1 b4 11.axb4 Qxb4 12.Bxg7 Kxg7 13.e5 Häusler-Kreutz, corr ICCF 2011.

9.Kb1
Rybka likes 9.e5 Nd5 10.Nxd5 Qxd2+ 11.Bxd2 cxd5 12.exd6 exd6 13.Bf4 but I'm not convinced.
9.Bxg7 Kxg7 10.Be2 Nbd7 11.h3 Bxf3 12.Bxf3 allows 12...c5 so 10.Kb1 is better again.

9...Nbd7 10.Be2 e5 11.Bxg7 Kxg7 12.h3 Bxf3 13.Bxf3 b5
In Christiansen-Benjamin, USAch 1997, White got outplayed. Maybe White should have maintained the tension in the centre.
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #47 - 01/19/18 at 18:25:49
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Just reposting this since I discovered I left out a move pair in my previous post, and I'm too late to change it:

Stigma wrote on 01/18/18 at 09:16:04:
Hmmm. Yes, now that I look at it, 4.Bf4 seems annoying. It's also scored extremely well in OTB games the last few years - don't know how I've missed this trend.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/18/18 at 00:07:33:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 a6 5.e5
Looks not so appetizing for black either in my view.

I have to agree. I looked at this with Stockfish, but the best Black continuation I've been able to come up with so far is 5...Nh5 6.Be3 dxe5 (6...Nc6?! 7.f4 dxe5 8.fxe5! {Instead of allowing the unclear piece sac 8.d5 Nb4 9.a3 exf4!}) 7.dxe5 Qxd1+ 8.Rxd1 Be6 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.Ng5 Bf5 11.e6 fxe6 12.Bc4 +=
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #46 - 01/19/18 at 11:18:04
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Hi.

Continuing the tossing up of lines. Instead of going for b5 early maybe 5...Qa5!? could be an ok fallback option. Black should be able to win a tempo against the f4 bishop with e7-e5 at some point if white plays calmly. He doesn't have to and can play stuff like Bc4 and 0-0-0 which may give some chances but even here black is generally not straddled with positions that look so bad to my eyes.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5
Compare with 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5 (6.f4 += to +/-) and 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5 (6.h3 Bg7 7.f4 +=). Here the bishop is probably less well placed since white a) does not have f2-f4 and b) Probably has to move the bishop if black gets in e7-e5.
6.Nf3 Bg7
6...Nbd7 7.Bc4!? Bg7; 7...b5 8.Bd3 Bg7 9.0-0 += White seems better placed; 8.0-0 0-0 9.e5 dxe5 10.dxe5 Nh5 11.e6 fxe6 12.Bxe6+ (+= White has some pull)
6...Bg4!? could possibly be best although to me it seems like much depends on the evaluation of: 7.e5 Nh5 8.exd6 Bxf3 9.gxf3 Nxf4!? 10.Qxf4 e6 11.0-0-0 Qf5 12.Qg3 Bh6+ 13.Kb1 Bf4 14.Qh4 (+=/= With some small pull for white in a simplified position)
7.Bc4!?
7.Bh6? Bxh6 8.Qxh6 Nxe4 (-/+) Is a definite tactical point.
7.h3 Nbd7 8.0-0-0 0-0 9.Bh6 e5 (= to += It is not obvious how white continues to put pressure on black.)
7.0-0-0 Bg4 8.Be2 0-0 9.Kb1 Nbd7 10.h3 Bxf3 10.Bxf3 Rfd8 (+= white is probably slightly for choice but black should have a playable position)
7...b5
7...Bg4?! 8.e5 Nh5 9.Ng5 d5 10.Nxd5! Qxd2+ 11.Bxd2 cxd5 12.Bxd5 Nc6 13.Bxf7+ Kf8 14.c3 (+= With likely more than enough compensation for the piece)
7...0-0 8.0-0 and it is not obvious how black plays.
8.Bd3
8.Bb3!? b4 9.Na4 Nxe4 10.Qe3 d5 (With compensation for white)
8...Bg4 9.e5!?
9.0-0 Bxf3 10.gxf3 0-0 11.Ne2 Qxd2 12.Bxd2 (= to +=)
9...Nh5 10.exd6 Bxf3 11.gxf3 Nxf4 12.Qxf4 e5!?
With dark square chances for black, even if it is by no means clear if he has enough play afterwards.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #45 - 01/18/18 at 15:25:08
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Hello again.

Another idea I wondered about if it could be any good here was:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Nbd7
I think it is probably not but as always white probably needs to meet it effectively.

Normally Nbd7 would be met by f2-f4 at some point and then generally black would be a bit sorry about having two clumsy knights so to speak. Here this is not allowed though. Instead 5.Nf3 looks best and then, as I imagine it conceptually, black would play something like:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Nbd7 5.Nf3
5.Qd2 e5 6.dxe5 dxe5 7.Bg3 Qe7 (Black is OK)
5.e5?! Nh5 6.Be3 dxe5 7.dxe5 Nxe5 8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 (=+ to =)
5...Bg7
5...c6 6.Qd2
6.Qd2 c5
or 6...0-0 7.0-0-0 c5

It seems to lead to a not so great dragon though; which is a bit sad.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #44 - 01/18/18 at 14:49:37
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Hi.

I think you are right that:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.Bd3
is the way to go.

The grand plan behind 5...b5 was that 6.f3 Nbd7 would be decent for black but after 6.Bd3 the position does not appear to compare favorably against similar positions with the bishop on e3.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #43 - 01/18/18 at 13:49:54
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kylemeister wrote on 01/18/18 at 09:10:05:
At first I wondered if I had had too much to drink, but 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.Qd2 Nc6 6.0-0-0 0-0 7. f3 e5 looks tactically bad, no?

Yes it does. I shouldn't look at positions when I'm just awake.


Stigma wrote on 01/18/18 at 09:16:04:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5
This however looks like a decent answer. Black may be playing a different system than he normally would against 4.Be3/5.Qd2 (if he prefers 4.Be3 a6 or 4.Be3 Bg7 there), but at least some of the sharpest 4.Be3 c6 lines are off the table - those where White combines a d4-d5 break with Bd4.

I'd say the bishop is more active on f4 than on e3 in this case. After 6.Bd3 Nbd7 7.Nf3 White threatens 8.e5 and Bg7 8.Bh6 transposes to a pretty good version of the 150-Attack. Also 6.Bd3 Bg7 can be answered with 7.Bh6.
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #42 - 01/18/18 at 09:16:04
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Hmmm. Yes, now that I look at it, 4.Bf4 seems annoying. It's also scored extremely well in OTB games the last few years - don't know how I've missed this trend.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/18/18 at 00:07:33:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 a6 5.e5
Looks not so appetizing for black either in my view.

I have to agree. I looked at this with Stockfish, but the best Black continuation I've been able to come up with so far is 6...dxe5 (6...Nc6?! 7.f4 dxe5 8.fxe5! {Instead of allowing the unclear piece sac 8.d5 Nb4 9.a3 exf4!}) 7.dxe5 Qxd1+ 8.Rxd1 Be6 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.Ng5 Bf5 11.e6 fxe6 12.Bc4 +=

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/18/18 at 00:07:33:
Maybe:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5

This however looks like a decent answer. Black may be playing a different system than he normally would against 4.Be3/5.Qd2 (if he prefers 4.Be3 a6 or 4.Be3 Bg7 there), but at least some of the sharpest 4.Be3 c6 lines are off the table - those where White combines a d4-d5 break with Bd4.
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #41 - 01/18/18 at 09:10:05
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At first I wondered if I had had too much to drink, but 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.Qd2 Nc6 6.0-0-0 0-0 7. f3 e5 looks tactically bad, no?
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #40 - 01/18/18 at 08:28:05
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/18/18 at 00:07:33:
I also don't really like the look of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.Qd2 Nc6
(6.0-0-0 with the knight not obviously being especially good on c6)

But how good does the bishop look on f4 actually? There is no (favourable) transposition to the Argentinean Attack (or Philidor, Larsen Variation) here as O-O 7.f3 e5 is fine. White won in a game Rapport-Bobras, 2013 with 7.Bh6 e5 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.d5 Nd4 but I strongly doubt if Black's opening play is to be blamed, White having the black squared bishops changed. That leaves White with 7.Nf3 Bg4 and again White won in Vorotnikov-Gubanov, St. Petersburg 1997 after 8.Be2 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 e5 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Be3 but again - what does White have after Qe7? In the three games from my database WHite couldn't prove anything. Plus Black has 8...d5 and perhaps even 8...Re8 (though 9.e5 looks a bit dangerous). White's best may be 8.Qe3.
I'd like to be convinced, because when heading for my beloved Argentinean Attack 4.Bf4 avoids some reliable variations for Black.
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #39 - 01/18/18 at 00:07:33
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Hello.

PatzerKing wrote on 01/15/18 at 13:43:06:
What is the recomendation in the book for the line 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4?

See Stigma's post.

PatzerKing wrote on 01/15/18 at 13:43:06:
What about the analysis of 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6? Is it useful?

As a practical player the answer would be yes. Theoretically I have not gone red team against the analysis presented so cannot really say.
In the lines he chooses to cover with more games (i.e. 4.Be3 a6 5.h3 and 4.Be3 a6 5.Nf3) coverage looks to focus on what looks like decent lines at least so that is good.

PatzerKing wrote on 01/15/18 at 13:43:06:
Have you seen any move order issues like in the book of Marin?

Nope. But I will read a bit more and see if I can spot any.

RdC wrote on 01/16/18 at 17:10:31:
Whilst one might regard 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 as "mostly harmless", there is a variation now played by English GMs Hebden and Williams which can run 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4

If you just continue 4. .. d6, then after Qd2 you are now defending a 150 Attack.

Yes. This is quite possible.

It should be mentioned though that you have already played Bg7 here so if you want the more flexible version of the 4.Bf4 Pirc you should probably consider:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 g6 3.Nc3 d6 4.e4

Stigma wrote on 01/16/18 at 22:30:46:
I haven't kept up with the Pirc debates here lately, so I don't know what the special problem with 4.Bf4 is.

But Davies actually covers it and takes it seriously. His main choice is based on lines with an early ...Nc6: 4.Bf4 Bg7 and now 5.Nf3 Nc6 or 5.Qd2 Nc6 (though his main line after 5.Qd2 Nc6 looks very scary for Black to my eyes). 4...a6 is suggested but not analyzed, while 4...Bg7 5.Nf3 a6!? is given a bit of analysis.

I also don't really like the look of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.Qd2 Nc6
(6.0-0-0 with the knight not obviously being especially good on c6)

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 a6 5.e5
Looks not so appetizing for black either in my view.

and quite possibly after:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Nc6 5.Qd2
It will be hard to find something distinct though still decent for black compared to the 4...Bg7 line.

So if white plays these ways I think I would not like to face 4.Bf4.

PatzerKing wrote on 01/16/18 at 15:05:31:
The main idea was to make all the lines working where Black plays …a6 especially in the 4.Be3/4,Bg5 variations. But I was wondering how to face 4.Bf4 without being move-ordered into the lines that Kornev or Marin mention after 4.Be3/4.Bf4.

Maybe:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #38 - 01/16/18 at 22:30:46
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I haven't kept up with the Pirc debates here lately, so I don't know what the special problem with 4.Bf4 is.

But Davies actually covers it and takes it seriously. His main choice is based on lines with an early ...Nc6: 4.Bf4 Bg7 and now 5.Nf3 Nc6 or 5.Qd2 Nc6 (though his main line after 5.Qd2 Nc6 looks very scary for Black to my eyes). 4...a6 is suggested but not analyzed, while 4...Bg7 5.Nf3 a6!? is given a bit of analysis.

The biggest hole in the book from my point of view has already been mentioned by Confused_by_Theory: He allows the dangerous 5...0-0 6.e5 Nfd7 7.Bc4 in the Austrian attack without even mentioning it. I thought this had already been discussed at length in The Modern Tiger, on member brabo's blog and no doubt in other sources, but Davies either ignored them or was unlucky with the timing of his writing process.

I haven't looked closely at his 4.Be3 a6 coverage, though it's probably the most extensive one available in book form, maybe apart from Moskalenko's in The Perfect Pirc-Modern. There may still be gaps in the coverage of course.

I really should look at this book more closely. It's likely to need some improvements here and there, but the repertoire Davies suggests is similar to what I actually play myself.
  

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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #37 - 01/16/18 at 17:10:31
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PatzerKing wrote on 01/16/18 at 15:05:31:
But I was wondering how to face 4.Bf4 without being move-ordered into the lines that Kornev or Marin mention after 4.Be3/4.Bf4.


Whilst one might regard 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 as "mostly harmless", there is a variation now played by English GMs Hebden and Williams which can run 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4

If you just continue 4. .. d6, then after Qd2 you are now defending a 150 Attack.
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #36 - 01/16/18 at 15:05:31
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Thanks!
The main idea was to make all the lines working where Black plays …a6 especially in the 4.Be3/4,Bg5 variations. But I was wondering how to face 4.Bf4 without being move-ordered into the lines that Kornev or Marin mention after 4.Be3/4.Bf4.
And regarding your question about my royality: I think I can claim to be a good candidate to be the king of all Patzers, because when I became a FM I managed to drop <2200 within 3 tournaments, with a loss of 35 Elo point in each tournament.  Tongue
  
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Re: The Pirc: Move by Move by Nigel Davies
Reply #35 - 01/16/18 at 14:25:47
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PatzerKing wrote on 01/15/18 at 13:43:06:
What is the recomendation in the book for the line 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4?
What about the analysis of 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6? Is it useful?
Have you seen any move order issues like in the book of Marin?

Thanks in advance for your answers!

Hello fellow Patzer and a big hail if you really are royalty.

Answering these things requires some looks in the book. I will check these things in the near future. Probably later today. Smiley

Have a nice day.
  
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