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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 13047 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #93 - 06/14/17 at 19:35:40
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Hello.

Alright. Here is some updated analysis of this whole 11...Bxf6 line. For anynone who does delve into the analysis posted on this forum. I think I Managed to bust my old main move of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.0-0-0 c6 8.f4 b5 9.e5 b4 10.exf6 bxc3 11.Qxc3 Bxf6 12.Bxf6 exf6 13.Nxf3

13...Be6
Which is a bit of a shame because the alternative:
13...f5
Looks less fun, even if it is relatively speaking more solid.
If a bust of this latter move is found I would worry about black's chances after 11...Bxf6. Perhaps as likely though my analysis can be improved and 13...f5 showed to be sufficient.


File attached.

Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: 06/14/17 at 22:20:57 by Confused_by_Theory »  

Pirc_Byrne_variation_analysis.pgn ( 10 KB | 15 Downloads )
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #92 - 06/14/17 at 18:41:46
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Hello AlekseiNK and thanks for posting the game.

13.Bd3 is definitely an attempt but I doubt it can be critical. The d3 square itself is a bit dumb for the bishop since black is about to play f6-f5 and more importantly taking on c6, seemingly the only decent follow up, does not look sufficient. Apart from Campbell's 16...Rb8 also 16...h5  looks alright and is what I looked at in earlier analysis. (second edit: Also, for what its worth, maybe white can force the position after 16...h5 if he wants). Probably white should try not going 16.h4 and instead turtle up with 16.Qc3 but I don't really think it brings great benefit (black gets his pieces out anyhow). Then again it is a pawn and sometimes even turtles can bite if you give them the chance (luckily not known from experience).

I will look a bit deeper at this whole 11...Bxf6 continuation and probably repost my old analysis in extended form. Tentatively I think that if black plays really precise he can avoid the most dreadful defensive position and probably equalise in the long run. This is by no means clear without a fair bit of analysis though.

Have a nice day.

Edit: Also. 11...exf6, keeping things on the board, looks not really like a hot contender for equaliser; even if that is what I would have wanted.
Second Edit:
In the line: (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.0-0-0 c6 8.f4 b5)
I notice the same black player losing a game after 9.Bxf6. This move looks like a fairly dangerous way of playing for white as well (idea should be after 9...Bxf6 a quick h4-h5 if black does nothing).
« Last Edit: 06/14/17 at 22:07:00 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #91 - 06/14/17 at 11:37:49
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/05/17 at 20:27:30:
Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/05/17 at 15:59:54:
I fear I may be out of date here!? I had thought Black was OK after 6 ...0-0 7 0-0-0 c6 8 f4 b5 9 Bd3 (9 e5 de 10 fe Nd5) b4 10 Nce2 Qa5 11 Kb1 Nbd7 -- can White significantly improve?

10.dxe5 would be my choice for sure. I posted some analysis of this in the Kornev book thread (reply 14). I believe there is nothing obviously better than going into what looks like a mildly unpleasant two pieces vs rook endgame.

There is also Kornev's 9...b4 but then 10.exf6 is surely critical and 10...bxc3 11.Qxc3 Bxf6 (!? - Kornev) does not seem like an ideal solution. Possibly it could somehow be alright for black; I guess. White looks a bit more comfortable though. Possibly instead of this 11...exf6 is the move but this leads to not easily understood chess.

And there are some 8th move options for white as well (8.Kb1, 8.Qe3 and 8.Qe1 - presumably all novel ideas)

Have a nice day.





  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #90 - 06/05/17 at 20:27:30
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/05/17 at 15:59:54:
I fear I may be out of date here!? I had thought Black was OK after 6 ...0-0 7 0-0-0 c6 8 f4 b5 9 Bd3 (9 e5 de 10 fe Nd5) b4 10 Nce2 Qa5 11 Kb1 Nbd7 -- can White significantly improve?

10.dxe5 would be my choice for sure. I posted some analysis of this in the Kornev book thread (reply 14). I believe there is nothing obviously better than going into what looks like a mildly unpleasant two pieces vs rook endgame.

There is also Kornev's 9...b4 but then 10.exf6 is surely critical and 10...bxc3 11.Qxc3 Bxf6 (!? - Kornev) does not seem like an ideal solution. Possibly it could somehow be alright for black; I guess. White looks a bit more comfortable though. Possibly instead of this 11...exf6 is the move but this leads to not easily understood chess.

And there are some 8th move options for white as well (8.Kb1, 8.Qe3 and 8.Qe1 - presumably all novel ideas)

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #89 - 06/05/17 at 15:59:54
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Quote:
A few pitholes in these 6.Bf4 a6 7.Nf3 lines it seems.

Not sure. In the 7 ...Nc6!? line Black is semi-forcing White to use a tempo on 8 h3, so maybe he's well set up to sac a pawn after (e.g.) 8 ...b5 9 Bd3 Bb7 10 e5 de 11 de Nd5 12 0-0 Nf4 13 Qf4 e6 14 a4 0-0!?, with sufficient comp.? Also, in the 7 ...b5 line above with 11 Qe3 Nc6, perhaps Black is OK after e.g. 12 c3 de 13 de e6 14 h4 Ne7!? (intending ...c5)? (My strongest engine goes 14 ...Qb8!?, idea ...Qb6, but maybe that's a bit slow/artificial?)

Quote:
Still think the main problem is 6.Bh4 though.

I fear I may be out of date here!? I had thought Black was OK after 6 ...0-0 7 0-0-0 c6 8 f4 b5 9 Bd3 (9 e5 de 10 fe Nd5) b4 10 Nce2 Qa5 11 Kb1 Nbd7 -- can White significantly improve?
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #88 - 06/05/17 at 01:26:54
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/04/17 at 23:08:30:
I'm still not sure I like 7 ...e6 -- can't White go 11 f4 in your line?

Yes he can Grin. Apparently
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bf4 a6 7.Nf3 e6 8.e5 dxe5 9.Nxe5 Nh5 10.Be3 Nd7 11.f4

11...Qh4+ 12.g3! Nxg3 13.hxg3 Qxh1 14.0-0-0 Qh5 15.Ne4! f5 16.Be2 is good for white (which I just missed) so 7...e6 is probably fairly dubious positionally. White gets a decent grip and black can't strike back early in part because white has this idea of giving the rook.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/04/17 at 23:08:30:
8 h3!? and something like 8 ...b5 9 Bd3 Bb7 10 e5 de 11 fe Nd5 ...?

Maybe even 9...Nd7 but then the deep 10.Be3 (10.d5 Nce5 looks to not obviously bring white closer to any advantage) might force black to go e7-e5 when he'd rather not really do that. Problem is white is placed to harmoniously so if black does nothing white can hit with a4 and because white is placed harmoniously normalising (Wink) the game with e7-e5 looks not greatly timed.


A few pitholes in these 6.Bf4 a6 7.Nf3 lines it seems.
Still think the main problem is 6.Bh4 though. Not really finding anything great there for black. We'll see if Marin goes for it I guess.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #87 - 06/04/17 at 23:08:30
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Quote:
7.Nf3 e6 8.e5 is definitely an idea ...  I don't think you should be displeased as black after 8...dxe5 9.Nxe5 Nh5 10.Be3 Nd7.

I'm still not sure I like 7 ...e6 -- can't White go 11 f4 in your line? But 7 ...Nc6!? might be a neat idea! I can see that 8 Bd3 now allows 8 ...Nd4 and 8 Bc4 could meet with 8 ...Bg4. 8 Be2 is possible (transposing to 7 Be2! Grin) but then 8 ...e6 looks good -- after 9 0-0-0 perhaps both 9 ...b5 and 9 ...g5 are playable. So maybe better is 8 h3!? and something like 8 ...b5 9 Bd3 Bb7 10 e5 de 11 fe Nd5 ...?

But I still like the 7 ...b5 line. Black has strongpointed the d5 square and I reckon he'll probably play ...dxe5 at some point, when White's centre doesn't look too mighty ...
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #86 - 06/02/17 at 17:28:13
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/01/17 at 23:56:23:
I haven't looked at this closely, but I was a bit worried about the immediate 8 e5. I thought Black's best might be 7 ...b5 as in Chernetskiy-Tkachiev. There, White replied 9 a3 (fishy, surely!) and after 8 ...Bb7 9 d5? c6 soon collapsed and came second. I imagined that best might be something like 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 e5 Nd5 10 Nd5 (10 e6 f5) Bd5 11 Qe3 Nc6!?. Maybe OK for Black? -- I'm not sure.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bf4 a6

7.Be2 Nc6 Looks about right indeed. One can argue white will probably not be so inclined to play Bf3 now making Be2 presumably not the most meaningfully placed piece on the board.

7.Nf3 b5 8.Bd3 Nc6 Should also be a bit interesting. Perhaps white can find some more or less advantageous way to continue, though with the knight on c6 black has many ideas of how to continue play (Bg4, Bb7, e6, e5, b4, Nd7, g5) and this is usually a good sign.
After 8...Bb7 9.e5 Nd5 10.Nxd5 Bxd5 11.Qe3 Nc6 I suspect white is well placed to keep his center intact for some time, but ok maybe black can live with this.

7.Nf3 e6 8.e5 is definitely an idea and can maybe be compared to the 6...e6 7.e5 classical Pirc. Still I don't think you should be displeased as black after 8...dxe5 9.Nxe5 Nh5 10.Be3 Nd7. I'm not really thinking white is better and if he is it will be hard for him to make immediate impact against a fundamentally quite sound black position. A definite plus with 7...e6 is also that 8.Bd3 Nc6 seems quite alright for black.

There is also 7.Nf3 Nc6 which could be tried.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #85 - 06/02/17 at 13:03:49
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I briefly had a look at this line, and thought 7 Be2-f3!? might be interesting ...

This struck a chord with me, because early this season I lost a horrible game to an opponent who used this plan! Here, though, maybe Black can go 7 ...Nc6 and not give White what he wants?
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #84 - 06/02/17 at 02:55:19
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I briefly had a look at this line, and thought 7 Be2-f3!? might be interesting, just trying to prevent Black from getting his ...b5/...Bb7/...Nbd7 set-up in.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #83 - 06/01/17 at 23:56:23
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Quote:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bf4 a6 7.Nf3!?
Looks most dangerous.

I had independently come to the same conclusion! I reckoned that, if White instead goes f2-f3, the position resembles the 4 Be3 a6!? line, in a form not disadvantageous to Black, who has the natural plan of ...b5/...Nbd7/...c5.

Quote:
I would probably just go 7...e6 and ask white what is up (at least not e5-e6!).

I haven't looked at this closely, but I was a bit worried about the immediate 8 e5. I thought Black's best might be 7 ...b5 as in Chernetskiy-Tkachiev. There, White replied 9 a3 (fishy, surely!) and after 8 ...Bb7 9 d5? c6 soon collapsed and came second. I imagined that best might be something like 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 e5 Nd5 10 Nd5 (10 e6 f5) Bd5 11 Qe3 Nc6!?. Maybe OK for Black? -- I'm not sure.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #82 - 05/27/17 at 19:54:24
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Hi.

Not that much to say really. Looks very decent for black. Decent like black seems to have many good looking and relatively option filled continuations.

Somehow:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bf4 a6 7.Nf3!?
Looks most dangerous.
In my simplified strategic view the idea is that white really needs to go for some e4-e5 or maybe h4-h5 push at some point. For this to work satisfactorily white basically wants his pieces on their best squares and f3 should be quite optimal for the knight. Black also has an annoying strategic "threat" of going b5; when to defend from b4+Nxe4 playing f3 is probably less dangerous compared to just proactively defending the pawn by anchoring it on e5 (supported by a knight on f3 ideally, because otherwise going e5 could even be problematic).

I would probably just go 7...e6 and ask white what is up (at least not e5-e6!). Then probably follow up with b5, some development and possibly even g5 at some point. Should not be bad for black really.

Have a nice day.
Edit: Grammar.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #81 - 05/23/17 at 19:01:00
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I haven’t yet managed to look with any depth at the defence to the Byrne that was played once by Adorjan: 4 Bg5 Bg7 5 Qd2 h6 6 Bf4!? [the more usual 6 Bh4 allows Black the interesting 6 …0-0 7 0-0-0 c6 8 f4 b5 defence, recommended by Moskalenko] a6!?. Who knows, it could be promising! However White responds, the positions are at least likely to be strategically a bit different from the familiar ones arising from 6 Bh4 g5 7 Bg3 Nh5 8 0-0-0: for one thing, Black hasn’t committed to …g5 and so White schemes involving Nge2/f4 may be off the table. I notice that Black has won all four games in the databases after 7 f3 b5 8 0-0-0 Nbd7, but the sample size of games in this line is really tiny. Any thoughts, or does anyone know of any coverage of this?
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #80 - 04/12/17 at 16:14:59
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Quote:
At an earlier point I gave:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Nbd7 9.0-0-0 Qe7 10.a4
presumably it's enough for some, basically positional, advantage.

Ah yes, sorry -- I don't think I ever did look at 10 a4 here. Just off the top of my head I'd reckon 10 ...ed 11 Nd4 Nc5 looks more natural than 10 ...Ng4, but a closer look is surely needed! And ditto at your interesting idea of trying to do without ...Qe7 ...
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #79 - 04/12/17 at 15:46:51
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 04/12/17 at 15:25:15:
Of course he can, but how much advantage does he get after 9 ...Qe7? In Reply #48 I wrote:
At an earlier point I gave:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Nbd7 9.0-0-0 Qe7 10.a4
presumably it's enough for some, basically positional, advantage.

Mostly since black will have a fairly tough time getting effective play going. On the bright side though much like in the other variations after 7...e5 black is not really in any danger of spoiling his position tactically, at least for the next ten moves or so.

Have a nice day.
  
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