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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 9227 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #80 - 04/12/17 at 16:14:59
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At an earlier point I gave:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Nbd7 9.0-0-0 Qe7 10.a4
presumably it's enough for some, basically positional, advantage.

Ah yes, sorry -- I don't think I ever did look at 10 a4 here. Just off the top of my head I'd reckon 10 ...ed 11 Nd4 Nc5 looks more natural than 10 ...Ng4, but a closer look is surely needed! And ditto at your interesting idea of trying to do without ...Qe7 ...
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #79 - 04/12/17 at 15:46:51
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 04/12/17 at 15:25:15:
Of course he can, but how much advantage does he get after 9 ...Qe7? In Reply #48 I wrote:
At an earlier point I gave:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Nbd7 9.0-0-0 Qe7 10.a4
presumably it's enough for some, basically positional, advantage.

Mostly since black will have a fairly tough time getting effective play going. On the bright side though much like in the other variations after 7...e5 black is not really in any danger of spoiling his position tactically, at least for the next ten moves or so.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #78 - 04/12/17 at 15:25:15
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Alas. White can go:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3! Nbd7 9.0-0-0 (or basically something reasonable other than 9.dxe5) and avoid the whole line at the top of this post ...


Of course he can, but how much advantage does he get after 9 ...Qe7? In Reply #48 I wrote:

Quote:
Of course White has other choices, chiefly 8 0-0-0. Then after 8 …Qe7 9 Nf3 Nbd7, James Vigus in his first book says the sacrificial line 10 h3 b5 11 Bb5 ab 12 Nb5 Qc5 13 Nd6 Ke7 is difficult for Black, but this looks most unclear to me (e.g. 14 Rd2 Rb8 with ...Rb2 threats) and quite possibly OK for Black if he’s prepared. (And if this is too hairy Black can try 9 …Bg4 instead: after something like 10 d5 a6 11 Be2 cd 12 Nd5 Nd5 13 Rd5 Nc6 or 11 dc Nc6 12 Bc4 Bf3 13 gf Nd4 White may claim a certain advantage, but is it so serious?) Meanwhile White can try 9 f3 iso 9 Nf3, but this looks perhaps less critical after 9 …b5 (or 9 …Nbd7 first).
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #77 - 04/12/17 at 14:53:20
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Hi.

Just to get this written down and to note these practical observations should they be of use to anybody. If black goes:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Nbd7

I'm thinking critical should be either:
10.a4!? (When I'm fairly sure black can play at least bit tougher compared to the lines I gave in an earlier PGN)
or possibly...
10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 a5 12.a3
(and not 12.a4, which could be met by for example 12...b4 13.Nb1 Ng4!? 14.Qg7 Qf6 15.Bxf7+ Ke7 16.Qxf6+ Ngxf6 17.Ba2 Nxe4 with not obviously favorable looking simplifications for white; also 13...Nxe4 is considerably more serious compared to the analogous position with Qe7 instead of Nbd7)

Alas. White can go:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3! Nbd7 9.0-0-0 (or basically something reasonable other than 9.dxe5) and avoid the whole line at the top of this post Cry.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #76 - 03/23/17 at 14:34:35
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If we go straight to concrete lines I'm thinking the following is probably not so good for black though:
20.Rad1 Rad8 21.Rxd6 Rxd6 22.Rc1

Yes, the subtle 22 Rc1! does indeed look good! (There are some wild variations possible after 22 ...Qh4!?, but it looks like they end up favouring White.) Maybe there is more to be discovered after 21 ...Qxd6, but it does look like 19 ...Nd4(!) should be considered the 'main line' here after all.


Quote:
To be honest I don't like either 7...e5 or 7...Qa5 though.

I do feel much the same! Moreover I don't feel the non-gambit lines after 7 ...e5 promise Black a heap of fun, even if they're OK. (Analysing the Pirc is great fun, but next season this patzer will be reverting to the mighty Kalashnikov Sicilian as his main weapon!)
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #75 - 03/23/17 at 06:45:38
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Morning.

Michael Ayton wrote on 03/22/17 at 21:50:22:
I really ought to keep better written notes! I have none on this, though I did look at it. From my memory I imagined here 23 ...Ne6 with ...f4-f3!? to follow. Maybe something like [23 ...Ne6] 24 Rad1 f3 25 Nc3 Rde8, when Black is OK? But even if this is right, maybe 19 ...Rd6, logically piling up on the d-file, should be called the main line?

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Nbd7 12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 Nc5 15.Qh6 a5 16.a3 Be6 17.Bxe6 Nxe6 18.Qe3 0-0-0 19.0-0 Rd6
This is sort of interesting of course. If we go straight to concrete lines I'm thinking the following is probably not so good for black though:
20.Rad1 Rad8 21.Rxd6 Rxd6 22.Rc1
22.g3 does allow black to plant a supported rook on d2, which should somehow be undesirable.

(A) 22...Qd8?! 23.Qa7! Rd2 24.Qa8+ Kd7 25.Qxd8+ Kxd8 26.Nb1!? Rd6 += with advantage thanks to the extra pawn.
(B) 22...Qd7 23.h4 Now Rd2 meets Nd5 tactics and is bad 23...a4 I just don't see the constructive moves for black. 24.g3 Kb7 25.Kg2 Nd4 26.Ne2!? += With at least some advantage for white.
(C) 22...Kb7 23.g3 Qd8!? 24.h4 Rd2 25.Kg2 += Because white has gotten in both g3 and Kg2 there is no Nd4 and black's rook is actually somewhat exposed.
(D) 22...Qg5? 23.Qxg5 Nxg5 24.f3 Rd2 25.Nb1 Rd8 26.Kf2 += Is too easy for white.

Other moves? Don't really see. Suspect black has strategic problems after 22.Rc1.

Michael Ayton wrote on 03/22/17 at 21:50:22:
Maybe 7 ...e5 is no worse than 7 ...Qa5 after all, who knows? (Certainly not me!) Perhaps it depends on whether, in the endgame line, Black can definitely arrange his pieces so as to render White's advantage on the queenside null and void. Is Black's best plan there known? The one I tentatively favour at the moment is to play ...Nde5 as soon as possible, then if White captures, bring the remaining Knight to d6 via f7, followed by ...Bd7 and possibly ...a5 and ...b6.

In 7...e5 white has to work a bit for advantage it seems and this in itself is probably a good discovery; making 7...e5 very much playable in many situations.

To be honest I don't like either 7...e5 or 7...Qa5 though. Still that doesn't keep people from recommending the latter move. Tongue

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #74 - 03/22/17 at 21:50:22
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21.f3 May have been a bad idea ...
21.exf5 Is the alternative. Maybe:
21...gxf5 22.Ne2!? f4 23.Qh3
Is something.

I really ought to keep better written notes! I have none on this, though I did look at it. From my memory I imagined here 23 ...Ne6 with ...f4-f3!? to follow. Maybe something like [23 ...Ne6] 24 Rad1 f3 25 Nc3 Rde8, when Black is OK? But even if this is right, maybe 19 ...Rd6, logically piling up on the d-file, should be called the main line?

Maybe 7 ...e5 is no worse than 7 ...Qa5 after all, who knows? (Certainly not me!) Perhaps it depends on whether, in the endgame line, Black can definitely arrange his pieces so as to render White's advantage on the queenside null and void. Is Black's best plan there known? The one I tentatively favour at the moment is to play ...Nde5 as soon as possible, then if White captures, bring the remaining Knight to d6 via f7, followed by ...Bd7 and possibly ...a5 and ...b6.


Quote:
When talking about the stabled pony KID I can give a shoutout for 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.c4 e5!? Always seemed interesting to me ...

I too have always been interested in this! -- though I think it's not necessarily a bed of roses for Black. Maybe I'll start a new thread ....
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #73 - 03/18/17 at 18:14:00
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Michael Ayton wrote on 03/18/17 at 09:39:18:
I  19 …Nd4 20 Rac1 f5 21 f3 Rf6 22 h3 f4 23 Qf2 g5! 24 a4 b4 25 Ne2 Ne2 26 Qe2 Qc5

21.f3 May have been a bad idea. As you note it is sort of a question if white can make progress and the more I look the more I think Black's space is highly useful. White after all has mostly got few and quite unimpressive squares for his pieces available. Another detail is that at some point white will likely have to make pawn moves to try and loosen black's grip on the position and this will almost certainly mean weaking his own position on a board with relatively active enemy pieces. In other words none below the rank of master groveller should attempt the move.

21.exf5 Is the alternative. Maybe:
21...gxf5 22.Ne2!? f4 23.Qh3
Is something. Then again conceivably black could have holding chances and white has to work a lot to win this type of position. With rooks black will always get some kind of counterplay, at some time or the other.

Michael Ayton wrote on 03/18/17 at 09:39:18:
I think 7 …e5 remains interesting. I certainly don't claim that it should challenge the 7 …Qa5 endgame variation as the main line though, since I imagine specialists like McNab know how to equalise/draw that position pretty cleanly. Neil McDonald in the latest ChessPub update seems to confirm this, suggesting that in the Pirc move-order 4 Be3 Bg7 is back in fashion. Thus confirmation ironically arrives that, if Black is happy with the endgame variation, he can by choosing a Modern Defence move-order avoid the reputedly pesky Byrne Variation entirely at exactly the time when Ayton demonstrates that (because of 4 Bg5 Bg7 5 Qd2 c6 6 f4 0-0 7 Bd3 Na6 8 Nf3 c5 9 d5 c4!) he needn’t do so anyway!

4...Bg7 is the most natural move after all. Would be nice If 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 could be proven to be harmless some day

JEH wrote on 03/18/17 at 10:15:33:
Between the choice of avoiding the Byrne variation or avoiding vast swathes of King's Indian and d4 specials theory with 1. d4 d6 and inviting the Pirc, I prefer the latter  Wink
Michael Ayton wrote on 03/18/17 at 10:41:01:
Essentially I agree! But for me the choice is subtler since I play the Classical KID with ...Nbd7 (or ...Na6 when allowed) and am happy with all KIDs where White has Ng1-f3 in, so I also like McNab's move order of 1 d4 d6! (I don't want to prevent 2 c4 e5!) 2 e4 g6 3 c4 Nd7!?. KIDs, yes, but basically only Classical lines of my choice plus the Fianchetto Variation.

When talking about the stabled pony KID I can give a shoutout for 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.c4 e5!? Always seemed interesting to me, especially compared to more normal lines of stabled pony KID.
You sometimes get an endgame after 4.dxe5 ofc. But I doubt this is critical. Against other stuff you can go in to more explored lines or try to find some way to be inventive. For example:
4.d5 Na6!? (Just a move of many. looks intersting though.)
4.Nc3 exd4 5.Qxd4 f6!? (Is not necessarily so bad for black. He will get to develop at least).
4.Nf3 exd4 5.Nxd4 Nc6 6.Nc3 Nf6!? (With I guess some sort of English opening where it is not obvious what white's best is at all)

Have a nice day.

  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #72 - 03/18/17 at 10:41:01
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Between the choice of avoiding the Byrne variation or avoiding vast swathes of King's Indian and d4 specials theory with 1. d4 d6 and inviting the Pirc, I prefer the latter.

Essentially I agree! But for me the choice is subtler since I play the Classical KID with ...Nbd7 (or ...Na6 when allowed) and am happy with all KIDs where White has Ng1-f3 in, so I also like McNab's move order of 1 d4 d6! (I don't want to prevent 2 c4 e5!) 2 e4 g6 3 c4 Nd7!?. KIDs, yes, but basically only Classical lines of my choice plus the Fianchetto Variation.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #71 - 03/18/17 at 10:15:33
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Michael Ayton wrote on 03/18/17 at 09:39:18:
he can by choosing a Modern Defence move-order avoid the reputedly pesky Byrne Variation entirely at exactly the time when Ayton demonstrates that (because of 4 Bg5 Bg7 5 Qd2 c6 6 f4 0-0 7 Bd3 Na6 8 Nf3 c5 9 d5 c4!) he needn’t do so anyway!


Between the choice of avoiding the Byrne variation or avoiding vast swathes of King's Indian and d4 specials theory with 1. d4 d6 and inviting the Pirc, I prefer the latter  Wink
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #70 - 03/18/17 at 09:39:18
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Reuniting with my notes, after 19 …Nd4 and 19 …Rd6!? I see I had as my main lines:

I  19 …Nd4 20 Rac1 f5 21 f3 Rf6 22 h3 f4 23 Qf2 g5! 24 a4 b4 25 Ne2 Ne2 26 Qe2 Qc5

II  19 …Rd6!? 20 Rad1 Rfd8 21 Rd6 Rd6!? 22 g3 Qd8 23 Nb1 Kb7 24 h4 Qd7 25 Kg2 f6 26 Rh1 Nd4

In neither case will White find it easy to make any progress, methinks …

I think 7 …e5 remains interesting. I certainly don't claim that it should challenge the 7 …Qa5 endgame variation as the main line though, since I imagine specialists like McNab know how to equalise/draw that position pretty cleanly. Neil McDonald in the latest ChessPub update seems to confirm this, suggesting that in the Pirc move-order 4 Be3 Bg7 is back in fashion. Thus confirmation ironically arrives that, if Black is happy with the endgame variation, he can by choosing a Modern Defence move-order avoid the reputedly pesky Byrne Variation entirely at exactly the time when Ayton demonstrates that (because of 4 Bg5 Bg7 5 Qd2 c6 6 f4 0-0 7 Bd3 Na6 8 Nf3 c5 9 d5 c4!) he needn’t do so anyway! Cheesy

  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #69 - 03/07/17 at 08:07:12
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Hello.

So it seems we have the following variation. I'm going to just scribble it down because I curently have no impulse for making another pgn:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6
Maybe it is time to name this variation. It is after all probably just going to get more popular and can be reached from many different move orders.
7.Qxh6 e5
7...Qa5 is the main move. Black can often reach a only slightly worse endgame (if white allows it of course), which has been covered somewhat in recent litterature.
8.dxe5
8.Nf3 Qe7 and only then 9.dxe5 seems to have some minor points. Nothing serious though.
8...dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Nbd7 12.Ng5
Looks like the critical way of playing this variation
12...Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 Nc5
Arguably the best try to try and prove compensation.
15.Qh6!? a5 16.a3 Be6 17.Bxe6 Nxe6 18.Qe3
18.0-0 Should just transpose after 18...0-0-0 19.Qe3.
18...0-0-0
As given by Michael Ayton. This does look like the most natural way of playing the position. 18...Nd4 is premature and 18...Rd8 should be worse than just castling.
19.0-0

Michael Ayton wrote on 03/06/17 at 21:39:18:
I've been 'out of it' with work lately so haven't managed to look in depth, but two questions about the 'main line' here:

(1) Didn't you consider 19 ...Nd4 (iso 19 ...Rd6!?)? -- that was my 'first choice'. (Should it be good I suppose White could always try the super-prophylactic Rc1 on move 19, but it looks artificial and maybe Black could then invade with his Knight on f4!)

(2) After 19 ...Rd6!? 20 Rad1 Rfd8 21 Rd6, did you consider 21 ...Rd6!? (idea, ...Qd8 and ...f5, just going for 'grip')?

(1) 19...Nd4 not so much because I thought white could just go Ne2 very soon. Black seems to have at least some resources though so 19...Nd4 should definitely be a move to consider. I guess one idea key idea for black is 20.Rac1 f5 (20.Rfc1 f5 as well seems reasonable when 21.exf5 gxf5 22.Ne2 f4 23.Qh3+ ; 23.Qe4 Nxe2+ 24.Qxe2 f3 looks a bit burdensome for white to progress from ; 23...Qe6!? 24.Qxe6+ Nxe6 plausibly black could find some way to hold and he has some other, not obviously worse looking, options on move 23 which could be tried) 21.Ne2!? f4 22.Qh3+ Qd7 23.Qd3 f3! 24.Nxd4 Qg4 25.Nxf3 Rxd3 26.Nxe5 Qxe4 27.Nxd3 With arguably an unclear position.
Edit: Forgot to mention that 20.Rac1 f5 21.f3 looks sort of stable for white and is possibly something white can go for and expect some minor edge (even if he will have to grovel around a bit).

19.Rc1 Nf4 directly seems to force 20.Kf1 if white wants to play for advantage (after 20.0-0 comp varied its evaluation between 0.00 and roughly +0.15 after much grovel so its probably just equal). It does seem a fair guess that he will make his pursuit of an edge harder by leading himself towards such unnatural moves. That being said 20.Kf1 is thinly better for white even if he probably will have problems making progress if black just plays reasonably.

(2) 19.0-0 Rd6 20.Rad1 Rfd8 21.Rxd6 Rxd6 I just checked a little before opting for 21...Qxd6 in the pgn. The queen move was basically in my focus for the purely practical reason that white's best seems to be g3 or h3 which are sort of not completely obvious pawn moves. The rook move I can imagine has some plusses though. Mainly it is easier to double (or triple Wink) on the d-line effectively and getting a supported rook to d2 (harder after Qxd6) would be nice positionally.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #68 - 03/06/17 at 21:39:18
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... I Thought I'd post a noticeably beefed-up version of the pgn in reply #59.


I've been 'out of it' with work lately so haven't managed to look in depth, but two questions about the 'main line' here:

(1) Didn't you consider 19 ...Nd4 (iso 19 ...Rd6!?)? -- that was my 'first choice'. (Should it be good I suppose White could always try the super-prophylactic Rc1 on move 19, but it looks artificial and maybe Black could then invade with his Knight on f4!)

(2) After 19 ...Rd6!? 20 Rad1 Rfd8 21 Rd6, did you consider 21 ...Rd6!? (idea, ...Qd8 and ...f5, just going for 'grip')?
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #67 - 02/26/17 at 16:00:35
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Hi.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/21/17 at 06:46:07:
So anyway I Thought I'd post a noticeably beefed-up version of the pgn in reply #59. Then I realised it was over 11000 characters and there is no attach function. Novel solution was to post here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1487658030/0#0
We'll see what happens. Mods have full power to do as they please of course.

Attach problem solved by Tony K Smiley. Here is the file.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #66 - 02/21/17 at 06:46:07
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Hey.

Since last time posting I looked a bit deeper and a bit broader and generally got a bit more pessimistic about black's chances in:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5

It's not that its a bad way of playing. Black is sort of even forcing white to go for serious continuations if he wants advantage and if he doesn't black seems very much OK. With analysis-glasses on however I can probably say that black should have some problems if white plays the pawn-grabbing continuation shown earlier and follows up decently (black can equalise even after the pawn-grab against natural but imprecise play).

Imo 7...e5 it is still a serious alternative to the main move 7...Qa5. To be fair though, at least part of this sentiment comes from thinking that the 7...Qa5 variation is also not exactly a party for black.

So anyway I Thought I'd post a noticeably beefed-up version of the pgn in reply #59. Then I realised it was over 11000 characters and there is no attach function. Novel solution was to post here:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1487658030/0#0
We'll see what happens. Mods have full power to do as they please of course.

Have a nice day.
  
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