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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 56987 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #127 - 08/01/19 at 12:27:25
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Hi.

MNb wrote on 07/22/19 at 18:34:59:
Quote:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.Bh6 covered via 4.Be3

Interesting. I've wondered whether 7.f3 b5 8.h4 is stronger. With 4.Be3 iso 4.Bg5 Black may answer 8.h4 with ...h5, but with the bishop on g5 that defense look less attractive.

The bishop is probably better on g5. Marin gives 8.Kb1 Nbd7 9.h4, which somehow feels less direct since Kb1 is not clearly necessary.

Michael Ayton wrote on 07/23/19 at 16:15:06:
Very interesting literature review, CbT -- thanks for it. I'm really glad this thread's taken off again after #110! Glad too that you successfully baptised the pawn-sac line (#111)!

I'm intrigued that after 4 Bg5 Bg7 5 Qd2 h6 6 Bf4!?, Kornev gives 6 ...a6!? (wherewith Black could if he wanted avoid the old 'Pirc Alert' lines completely by meeting 6 Bh4 with 6 ...0-0 or 6 ...c6). I tried to look at this a long while back but got sidetracked. Does Kornev's analysis here convince?

I haven't looked at it more than briefly when I've read the book but it looks alright. Against 7.Nf3 then he goes 7...g5 there are two other tries with a corr game mentioned in one that ended with ok play for black.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #126 - 08/01/19 at 12:21:23
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Hi.

I am an easily sidetracked person sadly. Here are some short thoughts on h6+g5 with putting the knight on d7.

About:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4/Bf4 g5 7.Bg3 Nh5 8.0-0-0 Nd7

It seems reasonable to talk move orders first. 4...h6 could be ok I suppose but I have yet found a position after 5.Be3 where I'd like to have played h6 as black. This problem is also what John Shaw points out when he discusses the move in his book.
4...Nbd7 5.f4 c6 6.e5 (or 5...Bg7 but then the same reply) I think favours white.
4...Bg7 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Bh6 is pleasant for white.
4...Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 Nbd7 seems viable even though 7.f4 (Otherwise just 7.0-0-0 and black should probably go 7...g5 but at least white will be committed to the main line with long castling) 7...c5 8.Nf3 cxd4 9.Nxd4 Nc5 10.e5 looks a little bit risky for black. Care required, although it looks viable.

So probably the traditional move order of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4/Bf4 g5 7.Bg3 Nh5 8.0-0-0
Is most relevant. Here I think 8...Nd7 looks more interesting compared to 8...Nc6 (which usually plans pretty slow things like e6, Bd7, Qe7). As it looked though many of the authors cover both moves or outright prefer 8...Nc6. In part it is down to taste. Now:
8...Nd7
In principle seems desirable to arrange the undermining c7-c5 move and jump the knight somewhere active in case there is a chance. I think the often covered pawn thrust is not horrible for black:
9.e5!? Nb6! 10.Bd3!?
10.Qe3 Bf5 (10...Be6!?) 11.Be2 Nxg3 12.hxg3 Qd7 13.f4 g4 14.Bb5 c6 15.Bd3 O-O-O 16.Nge2 Kb8 and to me it looks like white has given up so many squares I don't know how he would progress effectively. He may somewhat for choice regardless though.
10.Qe2 Is another iteration but something like. Nxg3 11.hxg3 Bf5!? 12.Qf3 Qc8 13.Qe3 Qd7 14.Bd3 O-O-O 15.f4 f6 16.Nf3 fxe5 17.dxe5 Bxd3 18.Rxd3 Qg4 seems to give black OK chances.
10...Be6
10...Nxg3 11.hxg3 Bd7 12.f4 e6 13.Be4!? d5 14.Bd3 Qe7 15.Nb5 Bxb5 16.Bxb5+ c6 17.Bd3 O-O-O Looks a bit passive.
11.Nge2 Qd7 12.exd6 exd6 13.f3 O-O-O 14.Bf2 Nf6
And suddenly it looks like a decent french exchange variation for white. Black having weakened himself somewhat with g5. Still it doesn't ultimately look so bad.

I'm not even sure I would venture the direct 9.e5 because there is also:
9.Nge2 c5 10.Nd5!?
To mess with black's development. As played by the creative GM Bellon Lopez against Marin. I think, since white threatens to just strengthen his center with c3, black needs to go:
10...Nxg3 11.hxg3 Nb6
To challenge white immediately. But then:
12.dxc5 Nxd5 13.exd5 dxc5 14.Nc3 Qd6
Looks to me something like between more pleasant to mildly advantageous for white. Crucially though not at all unplayable for black.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #125 - 07/24/19 at 23:03:21
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Interesting, to quote MNb! (Good to see you back here, MNb! Smiley) I had thought that the ...g5 lines were meant to be under a bit of a cloud these days, hence the reaching around for other lines, but maybe I'm wrong about that ...

Interesting too that in his second book Vigus seems to get ever so close to the Ayton Gambit, without actually suggesting it, if he doesn't! Cheesy ...
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #124 - 07/23/19 at 22:56:47
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Hi.

As I recall I thought Kornev was a bit to optimistic after 6.Bh4 g5 7.Bg3 Nh5 8.0-0-0 Nc6. The other suggestion was quite interesting on the other hand. There was some line with Bxf6 though and this didn't seem very enjoyable.

On a semi-related note I would probably join the 8...Nd7 camp in these h6+g5 structures. Seems likely to generate imbalanced positions without obviously burning many bridges. 8...Nc6 is not as active.

I'll give a few lines when I'm at my computer.

Have a nice night.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #123 - 07/23/19 at 16:15:06
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Very interesting literature review, CbT -- thanks for it. I'm really glad this thread's taken off again after #110! Glad too that you successfully baptised the pawn-sac line (#111)!

I'm intrigued that after 4 Bg5 Bg7 5 Qd2 h6 6 Bf4!?, Kornev gives 6 ...a6!? (wherewith Black could if he wanted avoid the old 'Pirc Alert' lines completely by meeting 6 Bh4 with 6 ...0-0 or 6 ...c6). I tried to look at this a long while back but got sidetracked. Does Kornev's analysis here convince?
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #122 - 07/22/19 at 18:34:59
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Quote:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.Bh6 covered via 4.Be3

Interesting. I've wondered whether 7.f3 b5 8.h4 is stronger. With 4.Be3 iso 4.Bg5 Black may answer 8.h4 with ...h5, but with the bishop on g5 that defense look less attractive.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #121 - 07/22/19 at 14:43:36
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Hi again.

To the extent that I am able to determine these things, below is what has been recommended by various authors:

Very different stuff overall.


Pirc Alert! (2001)

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2
5.f4 h6 6.Bh4 c5
5.e5 dxe5
5...h6 6.Bf4
6.Bh4 Nbd7
6...g5 7.Bg3 Nh5 8.0-0-0
8.Nge2 Nc6
8...Nc6 (and 8...Nd7)

the Pirc in Black and White (2007)

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2
5.f4 c6 (or 5...0-0 6.Qd2 c6 or this with 6...Nbd7) 6.Qd2 0-0 7.Bd3 b5
5.e5 dxe5 (and briefly 5...Nfd7)
5...h6 6.Bf4
6.Bh4 Nbd7!?
6...g5 7.Bg3 Nh5 8.0-0-0
8.Nge2 c5
8...Nd7 (and 8...Nc6)

Chess Developments: the Pirc (2012)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2
5.e5 Nfd7 (and briefly 5...dxe5)
5.f4 0-0 6.Qd2 c6 7.Nf3 (7.Bd3 Na6!?) 7...b5 (7...Bg4;7...d5!?) 8.Bd3 Bg4
5...h6 6.Bh4 g5 7.Bg3 Nh5 8.0-0-0
8.Bc4 Nd7 (and 8...Nc6)
8...Nd7
8...Nc6 9.Qe3!?
8...c6 9.Nce2!?
9.e5! Nb6 10.Qe3!?

The Perfect Pirc-Modern (2013)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7
4...h6 5.Bxf6
5.Qd2
5.f4 h6 (or 5...0-0 6.Qd2 c6/6...c5!? or 5...c6 6.Nf3 0-0/6...d5) 6.Bh4 (or 6.Bxf6!? Bxf6 7.Nf3!?/7.e5!?) 6...0-0!? (or 6...c5?!) 7.Nf3!? c5!?
5.e5 dxe5 (and 5...Nfd7)
5.Qe2 h6 6.Bxf6 Bxf6 7.e5
5...h6!? 6.Bh4 0-0
6...g5 7.Bg3 Nh5 8.0-0-0 Nc6 (and 8...Nd7)
7.f4 e5!
7...c5 8.dxc5!

Play the Pirc like a Grandmaster Vol. 2: Attacking lines (2014)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2
5.f4 0-0 6.Qd2 (or 6.Nf3 c5) 6...c6 7.Bd3 (or 7.Nf3 d5) 7...Qb6
5.e5 Nfd7
5...0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.f4
7.Bh6 covered via 4.Be3
7...b5 8.Bd3
8.e5 b4
8...b4

A Practical Black Repertoire with Nf6, g6, d6 (2016)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2
5.f4 0-0 6.Qd2 (or 6.Bd3 Nc6 or 6.Nf3 d5!?) 6...h6!? 7.Bh4 (or 7.Bxf6 exf6!?) 7...e5!
5.e5 dxe5
5.f3/5.Nf3/5.h3/5.Be2/5.Qe2
5...h6 6.Bh4
6.Bf4 a6
6...0-0!?
6...g5 7.Bg3 Nh5 8.0-0-0 (or 8.f3/8.Bc4/8.Nge2) 8...Nc6
7.0-0-0
7.Bd3 Nbd7 8.f4 c5
7.Nf3 c6 8.0-0-0 b5
7...c6 8.f4 b5 9.Bd3
9.e5 b5 10.Na4 (or 10.exf6)

The Pirc move by move (2016)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2
5.f4 0-0 6.Qd2 d5!? 7.e5 Ne4
5.e5 Nfd7
5.Nf3 0-0 6.Qd2 d5
5...h6 6.Bh4
6.Bf4 g5
6...g5 7.Bg3 Nh5 8.0-0-0
8.Nge2 Nc6
8...Nc6 9.Qe3 e6

Grandmaster Repertoire The Pirc Defence (2017)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2
5.f4 Bg7 6.Qd2 (or 6.e5 Ng4! or 6.Nf3 d5!) 6...b5 7.Bd3
(or 7.e5/7.a3) 7...0-0 8.Nf3 (or 8.0-0-0) 8...Bg4
5...Nbd7 6.f4
6.0-0-0/6.f3/6.Nf3
6...d5! 7.e5 Ne4! 8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Ne2
9.Qe3 f6

Have a nice day.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #120 - 07/20/19 at 17:05:53
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Hi.

I brought with me a lot of Pirc books and is doing a read through of the 4.Bg5 chapters atm. At the very least I will let you know which lines are favoured by which authors.

Have a nice evening.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #119 - 07/19/19 at 17:00:31
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 07/19/19 at 13:46:29:
One or the other of javascript or cross-domain scripting is disabled. We discussed it in the "The Forum is back!" thread.
https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1138031987/55
It's probably for the best. Your workaround is genius. I didn't notice the trick because I am not usually logged in while reading on chesspub.

Thanks, but "genius" is too strong for such a basic trick.  Smiley

Probably easiest if we all stop using the "pgn" and "/pgn" tags until they actually do something again. I guess people have kept using them in the hope it would be fixed soon.

Are there any issues with attaching a. pgn file or simply posting the pgn without those Javascript tags at present?
« Last Edit: 07/19/19 at 22:06:47 by Stigma »  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #118 - 07/19/19 at 13:46:29
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Stigma wrote on 07/19/19 at 11:04:18:
Downloading attached pgn files seems to work fine. It's only downloads of pgns created via the pgn tags that don't work.

These tags used to create a playable board directly in the browser with the variations in the pgn. I don't know why they now just produce a download link ("Download game in pgn format") that doesn't even work.


One or the other of javascript or cross-domain scripting is disabled. We discussed it in the "The Forum is back!" thread.
https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1138031987/55
It's probably for the best. Your workaround is genius. I didn't notice the trick because I am not usually logged in while reading on chesspub.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #117 - 07/19/19 at 11:52:06
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Quote:
My workaround is to press "Quote" on the post containing the pgn, then copying and pasting the pgn string from there.

Magic, Stigma -- thanks!
  
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Stigma
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #116 - 07/19/19 at 11:04:18
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Downloading attached pgn files seems to work fine. It's only downloads of pgns created via the pgn tags that don't work.

These tags used to create a playable board directly in the browser with the variations in the pgn. I don't know why they now just produce a download link ("Download game in pgn format") that doesn't even work.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #115 - 07/19/19 at 10:52:55
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Yea. The PGN's just stopped working some time ago. Cry
  
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Stigma
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #114 - 07/19/19 at 10:46:54
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Michael Ayton wrote on 07/19/19 at 10:01:31:
One problem: none of your pgn downloads (e.g. in 41, 45, 98, 99, 109) works from my PC. Is that just me, or is the 'workaround' yet to be discovered?


I've had problems with pgn downloads here for a long time now. Seems to be a sitewide issue.

My workaround is to press "Quote" on the post containing the pgn, then copying and pasting the pgn string from there.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #113 - 07/19/19 at 10:01:31
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Very interesting, CbT -- thanks! The Pirc lives! (I have to admit I've been going with the Stealth Philidor of late for a quieter life, but it's nice to keep abreast of developments ...)

One problem: none of your pgn downloads (e.g. in 41, 45, 98, 99, 109) works from my PC. Is that just me, or is the 'workaround' yet to be discovered?

  
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