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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 6251 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #65 - 02/18/17 at 08:43:14
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18.Qh3 (Idea 18...Qxb2 19.Kd2!) looks quite serious and seemingly gives fairly hard problems to solve.

Nice one!

Re 18 ...0-0-0 19 Qb6: I haven't had time to do more than fiddle around a bit with an engine, but this suggests to me that this line might have neither more nor less value than my original one (19 0-0 Nd4*). Black's plan in the ending is probably simply to advance (...f5 quickly, and at some point ...a4), making it very hard (hopefully!) for White to realise his extra pawn advantage.

* 19 ...Rd6!? might be possible too?
  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #64 - 02/18/17 at 07:25:26
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/14/17 at 01:18:55:
Can't find the attach function. The established workaround is to activate the quote function and then copy the pgn part of the quote into a program that can construct pgn files.


Works!  Cool
  

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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #63 - 02/18/17 at 07:13:02
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Hey.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/14/17 at 01:18:55:
In terms of other stuff not in the pgn I think that in the 11...a5 12.a3 variation I forgot to give 18.Qh3 instead of 18.Bxf7+. Also I forgot to give a variation after 8.Nf3 Qe7 9.h3.

To add to this. 18.Qh3 (Idea 18...Qxb2 19.Kd2!) looks quite serious and seemingly gives fairly hard problems to solve. As long as there are no appealing alternatives (don't see) 11...a5 looks dubious.

In other news though 8.Nf3 Qe7 9.h3 is rubbish because of  9...exd4 and 10...Nxe4. I simply forgot to add a ? plus a few simple moves and make it not the main subvariation at that point Tongue.



Anyway. I am sort of trying to think of ways to be clever as black. Have one possibly quite interesting idea already btw but I don't think it will work. Somehow black wants to avoid ending up with a prospectless pawn down position against accurate white play, or possibly allowing this and then making white's conversion a hard task.

Will probably first check 18...0-0-0 a bit (see #59 pgn main-line). Initially I'm thinking that is not the point you wanna start trying to find resources for black though maybe he reach some hard to break down setup.

JEH wrote on 02/13/17 at 20:54:38:
Unfortunately it is too large to download  Sad

There is a PGN button where you can attach it as a .pgn file, could you do that?
Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/14/17 at 01:18:55:
Can't find the attach function. The established workaround is to activate the quote function and then copy the pgn part of the quote into a program that can construct pgn files.

Annoying thing this. I checked the spanish repertoire thread a little while ago and there this function is plainly visible. Past experience also says it is possible to attach pgns in that thread.
Some kind of sub-forum setting I guess Huh.

Have a nice day.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #62 - 02/14/17 at 01:18:55
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 02/13/17 at 19:16:34:
Wow, that's some analysis! It'll take me some time to go through it, but I look forward to doing so! But tell me, at the end, why did you reject 18 ...0-0-0? I wonder if it was because of 19 Qb6. After that I thought 19 ...Qc7 20 Qc7 Kc7 (with a lead in development!) might give interesting compensation, but as yet at least I've no idea if it is enough ...

Maybe it is a better move. I guess I didn't like having the king with advanced pawn cover, though it should not be a problem really.

Probably white should still go 19.0-0, although he can also play 19.Qb6 with the aim of exchanging queens (not that it seems killer).

In terms of other stuff not in the pgn I think that in the 11...a5 12.a3 variation I forgot to give 18.Qh3 instead of 18.Bxf7+. Also I forgot to give a variation after 8.Nf3 Qe7 9.h3.

JEH wrote on 02/13/17 at 20:54:38:
Unfortunately it is too large to download  Sad

There is a PGN button where you can attach it as a .pgn file, could you do that?

Can't find the attach function. The established workaround is to activate the quote function and then copy the pgn part of the quote into a program that can construct pgn files.

Have a nice day.
  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #61 - 02/13/17 at 20:54:38
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/13/17 at 16:54:41:
Skillfully, without even aiming for it, I have over 500 of the allowed 11000 characters per post left after posting the pgn


Unfortunately it is too large to download  Sad

There is a PGN button where you can attach it as a .pgn file, could you do that?
  

"Football is like Chess, only without the dice."

"Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations."
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #60 - 02/13/17 at 19:16:34
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Wow, that's some analysis! It'll take me some time to go through it, but I look forward to doing so! But tell me, at the end, why did you reject 18 ...0-0-0? I wonder if it was because of 19 Qb6. After that I thought 19 ...Qc7 20 Qc7 Kc7 (with a lead in development!) might give interesting compensation, but as yet at least I've no idea if it is enough ...
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #59 - 02/13/17 at 16:54:41
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Hello.


Skillfully, without even aiming for it, I have over 500 of the allowed 11000 characters per post left after posting the pgn Cool

So among other things I can ask a general question (one asked not for the first time) of whatever happened to the attach file function?

Also there is space to write that I did not really find a solution to white's pawn grabbing attempts. If he makes them at the ideal time and then executes well he should reach somewhat better positions. Black can of course play most of them without dieing immediately though.

Have a nice day.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #58 - 02/13/17 at 16:07:17
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[quote author=7073797F1E0 link=1466412326/57#57 date=1486982630] [quote]I'm glad of this, since you'd given a somewhat contrary impression ... [quote]
Pardon me for not being a native English speaker, because I totally fail to understand how

"It seems .... trying small"
gives the impression of certainty. Perhaps this?

"I wouldn't mind to play this in a corr. chess game at all; I would call my opening choice a success."
I stick to that one, given how difficult it has become to prove anything more than dead equality in corr. chess.
And now I'm out again - my tolerance for this kind of silliness apparently has become a lot lower compared to five years ago or so.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #57 - 02/13/17 at 10:43:50
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What I'm not certain of is if White can turn this lead in development in a concrete advantage or that it will dissipate.

I'm glad of this, since you'd given a somewhat contrary impression ...

Quote:
16...Nxb3 17.cxb3 Qg5 might be more precise.

I was thinking this might be inferior as I was worried about White bringing a Rook to the c-file, but I can't be categorical.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #56 - 02/13/17 at 10:02:14
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Quote:
It's terribly slow. Indeed 13.Ng5 is pointless (then rather 12.Ng5) but White will maintain a lead in development after 13.Rfe1.


Michael Ayton wrote on 02/13/17 at 01:14:02:
Absent concrete analysis, you must forgive me if I'm very much less certain of all this than you seem to be. How do you see the game going after [13 Rfe1] Nh5?

I don't need analysis to count pieces on the board. After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 (4.Bg5) Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Nbd7 12.O-O Nc5 13.Rfe1 White needs two more moves to finish development (if we also count Qh6) and Black four (Ra8, Bc8, Ke8, Rh8).
Since I was four I'm very certain about my counting abilities. What I'm not certain of is if White can turn this lead in development in a concrete advantage or that it will dissipate.

Quote:
I've analysed it a bit and have come to the conclusion that White should not hurry to bring back Her Majesty Home.

How did your analysis of 15 0-0 a5 16 a3 Qg5 run?
[/quote]
Probably not deep enough. In a corr. game I would spend hours and hours.
"12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 Rf8 15.O-O a5 16.a3 Qg5"
16...Nxb3 17.cxb3 Qg5 might be more precise. Or not. That's the bit I'm not sure of
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #55 - 02/13/17 at 01:14:02
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It's terribly slow. Indeed 13.Ng5 is pointless (then rather 12.Ng5) but White will maintain a lead in development after 13.Rfe1.

Absent concrete analysis, you must forgive me if I'm very much less certain of all this than you seem to be. How do you see the game going after [13 Rfe1] Nh5?

Quote:
I've analysed it a bit and have come to the conclusion that White should not hurry to bring back Her Majesty Home.

How did your analysis of 15 0-0 a5 16 a3 Qg5 run?

  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #54 - 02/13/17 at 00:16:20
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Actually the plan you outline for Black is an attempt to solve the issues Black is dealing with ....  Cheesy
It's terribly slow. Indeed 13.Ng5 is pointless (then rather 12.Ng5) but White will maintain a lead in development after 13.Rfe1. The remedy for the WQ being offside is never more than one move - just Qe3 or Qh3. Until then Rh8 is even more offside.
Btw in your gambit line (11...Nbd7) something similar applies. Iso 15.Qh6 I'd prefer 15.O-O a5 16.a3 Be6 17.Bxe6 Nxe6 18.Rfd1 Nd4 19.Qh3. As this is part of my repertoire for White (via 4.Be3) I've analysed it a bit and have come to the conclusion that White should not hurry to bring back Her Majesty Home.
It seems a nice choice for White to me - clinging to the pawn or trying to convert the lead in development in a small but lasting positional advantage. I wouldn't mind to play this in a corr. chess game at all; I would call my opening choice a success.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #53 - 02/12/17 at 17:22:31
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Black still has some issues to deal with after simply 12.O-O.

Not sure. I was thinking Black could just go 12 ...Nc5 with the idea of ...a5 and then ...Nh5 and ...f6, possibly following with ...Ng7 and ...0-0, depending on what White does. Of course on 13 Ng5 (which I imagine is pointless?) we must take the Bishop first. It's the possibility of doing that which led me to prefer the Knight move on move 11, but that might be wrong. The gambit line looks weird I know, but then the WQ is offside and maybe White's position risks becoming stagnant for all his slight lead in development? -- more work needed!

  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #52 - 02/12/17 at 14:32:09
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Hello.

MNb wrote on 02/11/17 at 20:25:37:
I'm not sure if I'd call this solid as Black is playing a gambit after 12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 an the compensation is not so clear to me (White seems better developed).
At the other Black still has some issues to deal with after simply 12.O-O.

Of course black is not solid everywhere. That wouldn't be any fun. Cheesy

Anyway. Have started to analyse and find myself somewhat drawn to 11...a5!? over 11...Nbd7 (which turns out a bit more passive). Both seem quite playable though

Have a nice day.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #51 - 02/11/17 at 20:25:37
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/11/17 at 16:37:09:
Hey.

Interesting move this 7...e5. Black is quite solid indeed.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Nbd7 though.

I'm not sure if I'd call this solid as Black is playing a gambit after 12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 an the compensation is not so clear to me (White seems better developed).
At the other Black still has some issues to deal with after simply 12.O-O.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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