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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 25600 times)
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #108 - 11/07/17 at 22:46:29
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 11/05/17 at 22:52:58:
Hi.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 10/31/17 at 05:19:55:
Hello.

mn wrote on 10/29/17 at 03:48:12:
According to a user on the QC blog, Marin does suggest 4...c6

fling wrote on 10/30/17 at 18:59:58:
Yes, and also suggest 12...e3!N, but only mentions two queen moves after that.

Oki. Thanks for the info. Will be fun to see how Marin wants to play this system.


I have Marin's new book now and will just say that coverage of 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.f4 is not very broad.

Taking a look at what is here in this thread is probably even worth it if you intend to play this line. Maybe I will combine the various PGN's here to make this easier.

Have a nice day.


Not much coverage, no. Thanks for spending time on expanding the analysis in the Pirc. I am not currently playing the opening, but has been interested in it ever since I got Pirc Alert.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #107 - 11/05/17 at 22:52:58
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Hi.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 10/31/17 at 05:19:55:
Hello.

mn wrote on 10/29/17 at 03:48:12:
According to a user on the QC blog, Marin does suggest 4...c6

fling wrote on 10/30/17 at 18:59:58:
Yes, and also suggest 12...e3!N, but only mentions two queen moves after that.

Oki. Thanks for the info. Will be fun to see how Marin wants to play this system.


I have Marin's new book now and will just say that coverage of 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.f4 is not very broad.

Taking a look at what is here in this thread is probably even worth it if you intend to play this line. Maybe I will combine the various PGN's here to make this easier.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #106 - 10/31/17 at 05:19:55
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Hello.

mn wrote on 10/29/17 at 03:48:12:
According to a user on the QC blog, Marin does suggest 4...c6

fling wrote on 10/30/17 at 18:59:58:
Yes, and also suggest 12...e3!N, but only mentions two queen moves after that.

Oki. Thanks for the info. Will be fun to see how Marin wants to play this system.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #105 - 10/30/17 at 18:59:58
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mn wrote on 10/29/17 at 03:48:12:
According to a user on the QC blog, Marin does suggest 4...c6


Yes, and also suggest 12...e3!N, but only mentions two queen moves after that.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #104 - 10/29/17 at 03:48:12
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According to a user on the QC blog, Marin does suggest 4...c6
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #103 - 10/28/17 at 04:14:34
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 10/27/17 at 23:59:32:
6 ...d5! is a fantastic TN, if it is, and C_b_T can surely claim credit! Exactly what was needed to inject life back into the Pirc! (In the line after 12 ...e3 perhaps White should play 16 Be2? -- but there too Black obviously has activity.)

16.Be2 analysed in reply #45.

Michael Ayton wrote on 10/27/17 at 23:59:32:
I wonder what Marin's thinking here was. I'm tempted to think it all happened at the board (and thus that 5 ...Nbd7 might not be in the book) -- otherwise, it seems very strange that Marin should miss playing 12 ...e3!

I guess we will see (and soon).

The clear upside to everything though is that we know there is going to be a 4.Bg5 chapter. Something nice should be covered. Grin

Have a nice day.


Edit: By the way. Can someone with greater powers change the moves in reply #98 to bolded c6 instead of bolded Bg7? Looks completely stupid now -Look at this new line *gives wrong line*-.
Copy pasting is damn hard business. Tongue
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #102 - 10/27/17 at 23:59:32
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6 ...d5! is a fantastic TN, if it is, and C_b_T can surely claim credit! Exactly what was needed to inject life back into the Pirc! (In the line after 12 ...e3 perhaps White should play 16 Be2? -- but there too Black obviously has activity.)

I wonder what Marin's thinking here was. I'm tempted to think it all happened at the board (and thus that 5 ...Nbd7 might not be in the book) -- otherwise, it seems very strange that Marin should miss playing 12 ...e3!
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #101 - 10/23/17 at 16:51:45
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 10/23/17 at 07:04:22:
Thanks for that. I wonder if he got it from this forum?  Huh


Realistically. Yes. It is that or he got a tip about the line or somehow knew about it beforehand.

The real interesting thing, I find, is would he play something like that against a 2600 without looking at the line? If he has looked at it and decided to use it against a 2600 does that not indicate he thinks the line is fairly decent?

Decent enough to put in a repertoire book maybe even...

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #100 - 10/23/17 at 07:04:22
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 10/23/17 at 05:22:56:
Seeing Marin play this completely unknown (outside of chesspub forum) system at that time and against such a strong opponent is mildly put quite interesting though.



Thanks for that. I wonder if he got it from this forum?  Huh
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #99 - 10/23/17 at 05:22:56
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Hello.

I noticed now that Marin has recently tried this 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 system as well.



Not the best game obviously. Playing the fairly concrete 12...e3 was key (e.g. 12...e3 13.Qxe3 Qb6 14.Qxb6 axb6 15.g3 Nxe5! 16.fxe5 g5) and black should be fine.

Seeing Marin play this completely unknown (outside of chesspub forum) system at that time and against such a strong opponent is mildly put quite interesting though.

Have a nice day.

  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #98 - 09/14/17 at 14:01:40
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Hi.

Below is a first practical test of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 Nbd7
Fun stuff, although maybe a bit risky to play like I did. Cheesy



Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #97 - 07/11/17 at 21:34:54
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 07/11/17 at 17:09:25:
I was confused by theory but then confused by theory showed my theory confusion was a only confusion that my confusion was theoretical  Smiley

You are welcome Grin

To follow up a bit on my earlier post.
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.0-0-0 c6 8.f4 b5 9.e5 b4 10.exf6 bxc3 11.Qxc3 Bxf6 12.Bxf6 exf6 13.h3!?
might be a decent try for some edge. For example:
13...f5 14.g4 Qf6 15.Qd2 Re8
15...fxg4!? 16.hxg4 Bxg4 17.Be2 Bf5 18.Bf3 Looks like at least sufficient compensation.
16.g5 hxg5 17.fxg5 Qe6 18.b3 And white does seem to have the slightly more comfortable position in my opinion.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #96 - 07/11/17 at 17:09:25
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I was confused by theory but then confused by theory showed my theory confusion was a only confusion that my confusion was theoretical  Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #95 - 07/11/17 at 12:50:28
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/27/17 at 10:29:39:
Many thanks for all this hard work, C_b_T! I regret I haven't had time lately to look at things closely, but one evening a week or two ago I was doing what you're not meant to do, namely just running an engine and watching passively, and it came up with something I thought quite interesting after 12 Bf6 ef 13 Nf3 in the line above, namely 13 ...a5!?. The idea I guess is to delay ...Be6 for the moment and to enable a possible ...Ra7. The sequel was fascinating!: 14 Re1 f5 15 h4 (15 Rg1?! Nd7) h5 16 Ng5 Ra7 17 Rh3 Ba6 18 Rg3 Bf1, and now came a wild attack! -- 19 d5!? Re8 20 Ne6! fe 21 Rg6 ...

Looking at this again very quickly I have no idea whether Black can defend or not. Maybe he can, but it sure looks dangerous, and I take your point about White having other options anyway. All in all, maybe Black should grit his teeth and accede to the tedious endgame line after all ...

I'm not sure about some of those moves. White's strategy seemed a bit based on that carneval games where you have to throw and knock down an entire pyramid of cans with a set number of balls. It felt like the attempts kept coming at fast pace without any finesse and in the end position I think black is going to hold and probbably without problems if white does not have some nice idea.

Since I brought up the subject of finesse, maybe white can consider 13...a5 14.h3!? to prepare g4+Bg2 and give black a less secure structure in the long term (13.h3 sort of comes to mind as well even if looks like a less good version).

Have a nice day.

Edit:
General observations on 4.Bg5 lines... If white plays the absolute best lines with some accuracy I don't think the picture looks great.

Ideally I would like 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.0-0-0 c6 8.f4 b5 9.e5 dxe5 to work. Although as I mentioned white has 10.dxe5 and the f4+e5 wedge is not fun to meet.

Then there is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.0-0-0 c6 8.f4 b5 9.e5 b4 although in this you need to degrade your structure and play fairly prospectless positions, which even though white has no immediate breakthroughs look not really trustworthy imo.

If all else there is this endgame line with 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 and yea... 7...Qa5 or 7...e5. I am fairly certain these are not the lines of the future though.

I have come to the conclusion that I will just give up on 4.Bg5 Bg7 for now and try 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 next time I face 4.Bg5. If nothing else it's a line that needs proving in practice (and also probably a bit more proof of concept analysis as well... Roll Eyes)

  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #94 - 06/27/17 at 10:29:39
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Many thanks for all this hard work, C_b_T! I regret I haven't had time lately to look at things closely, but one evening a week or two ago I was doing what you're not meant to do, namely just running an engine and watching passively, and it came up with something I thought quite interesting after 12 Bf6 ef 13 Nf3 in the line above, namely 13 ...a5!?. The idea I guess is to delay ...Be6 for the moment and to enable a possible ...Ra7. The sequel was fascinating!: 14 Re1 f5 15 h4 (15 Rg1?! Nd7) h5 16 Ng5 Ra7 17 Rh3 Ba6 18 Rg3 Bf1, and now came a wild attack! -- 19 d5!? Re8 20 Ne6! fe 21 Rg6 ...

Looking at this again very quickly I have no idea whether Black can defend or not. Maybe he can, but it sure looks dangerous, and I take your point about White having other options anyway. All in all, maybe Black should grit his teeth and accede to the tedious endgame line after all ...
  
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