Michael Ayton wrote on 06/30/16 at 09:38:07:


I lost to an IM in the Bg5 variation, and that's the same point me made to me in the post mortem.

Hello.

Nice to see some dicussion of 4.Bg5. I will chip in at a few places (Maybe to many actually - sorry for long post).


(About 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6)
Michael Ayton wrote on 06/20/16 at 08:45:26:
After 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 The active queen development 7...Qa5 is the main move by far. Vigus on p.150 of "Chess Developments the Pirc" gives what I think is the best play line of 8.Bd3 The natural move. Other ways of defending e4 have drawbacks 8...c5 9.d5 Nbd7 10.Nf3 c4! 11.Bxc4 Qc5 planning tactics on f2. It is a = or at worst a very slightly += line from what I can tell (despite some mild computer optimism).


RdC wrote on 06/20/16 at 09:16:04:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Bg5
Is less dangerous than the Pirc line in my view. As far as I know this is a common belief.


(About 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7)
Michael Ayton wrote on 06/20/16 at 14:41:38:
Getting h6 for free probably benefits black if white backs his bishop to f4. The 6...a6 reply looks very reasonable. White has temporarily set up poorly to punish slow moves.


Michael Ayton wrote on 06/21/16 at 16:10:37:
I would be worried about 6.e5 Black's knight has no good flight squares and none of 6...dxe5, 6...h6 and 6...b4 look to give black that good counterplay.


Michael Ayton wrote on 06/21/16 at 16:10:37:
My usual bookstore did not have it when I went there a few days ago (despite them usually getting new publications fast enough). Instead I got a couple of other chess books I'm not sure will ever be read much .


TN wrote on 06/21/16 at 17:46:15:
Imo 4...h6 is interesting only if there are points behind the move in case white plays the natural 5.Bh4 or 5.Bf4. By points I mean black after 5.Bh4 or 5.Bf4 should have gained some option or removed some option for white. Otherwise going 4...h6 and thus allowing the two separate new variations of 5.Bxf6 and 5.Be3 does not really feel that worth it. Still all move orders have move order specific lines I guess so plausibly one can avoid other annoying lines by going with the 4...h6 move order and allowing the two lines above.

ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 06/27/16 at 02:30:40:
Indeed. there are some moves besides 6...g5 in the position.
The 6.Bh4 0-0 mentioned by Moskalenko has the very nice point that 7.f4 e5 is quite unproblematic for black. Still maybe white can go 7.0-0-0 retaining f4 ideas and -by increasing the d-file presence- quietly telling black good luck going e7-e5.


Stigma wrote on 06/28/16 at 18:43:54:
There are downsides but white can probably avoid the most serious ones by choosing the right 6th move. After
4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0

6.Bh6 is maybe (possibly) not the best way of commencing white's kingside attack (DW the Pirc and Modern chapter 2 covers this reasonably well - beginning on p.33).
6.f3 looks like it may go into a normal argentinian with black early castling position but there is 6...c5, which at least prevents any straightforward attacking by white.
6.0-0-0 Is very natural also and keeps many plausible transposition possibilities. To be honest I don't know of anything obviously better than 6...c6 likely transposing to double edged lines after 7.Bh6.


Stigma wrote on 06/28/16 at 18:43:54:
Not seriously looked at, no. Moved a few pieces with a comp running, yes. I actually quite like 4...a6 as a waiting move. There is both 5.f4 and perhaps especially 5.e5, which look like serious lines though.

Have a nice day.

Bibs wrote on 06/28/16 at 12:47:17:


Hmm, I don't have either of Lakdawala's books. Hadn't thought of d4 rep ones as indeed Veresov players are going to come at ya with this line.

I'm as as yet unbeated by Naka, nor have I crushed the crusher (nice game!)

RoleyPoley wrote on 06/28/16 at 12:22:45:


To answer my own question as I've now been able to find it, yes, Collins did recommend it in his Attacking repertoire for white.

Also, Lakdawala's ferocious repertoire, although not an e4 repertoire book also recommended the line.

The main puzzle I have about the Bg5 Pirc is what White repertoire books recommend it? I'm only aware of the ancient Keene/Levy Attacking Rep book and the shiny new Quality Chess book, but nothing in between. There seems to be mostly the 150 or the Austrian attack. So are Bg5 White players just having to work their own theory out?

Davies recommends 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.0-0 h6 6.Bh4/f4 g5.

I think ideas delaying early commitment to ...g5 deserve more attention. 6.Bh4 0-0!? was given some attention in Moskalenko's book (Kobalia - Kuzmin, Moscow 2002), but he did not cover the implications of the 6.Bf4 move order. Black's position is flexible, so I think there is a lot of scope for independent investigations. FWIW the online opening encyclopedia CHOPIN gives this approach as the main line. (FYI 6.Bf4 a6!? 7.f3 b5 is their recommendation and there are not many games. Maybe ...a6 is the future of the Pirc! I'm beginning to think that about 4.Be3 a6!?.) Another practical consideration is that these ideas do not get much attention in Shaw's recent repertoire book.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/23/16 at 10:49:07:


Engines are divided about how best to respond to 6. .. Bg7 7. f5 .
Materialistic ones will take on f5, claiming equality through possession of an extra pawn and Bishop pair. Others prefer moves like .. Nc6 confident that Black's position isn't so bad after all.

The moves retaining the Bishop Bh4, Be3 and Bf4 have been more popular in practice than taking on f6.