Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/14/16 at 16:42:11:


Once you play ..c6, you are committed to a particular structure and ideas. There are alternatives to 4. .. c6, some of which can transpose.

Personally I think the "Modern" move order with 1. e4 d6 2. d4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. any a6 is a better try, but 3. Nc3 isn't forced, 3. c4 or 4. f4 could be played.

Hi.

Been contemplating how to play this as black:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2

Pirc Litterature does not give an abundance of ideas. This is what is covered basically:

The Ultimate Pirc (1998): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5 and brief coverage of 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7
Pirc Alert (2001): 4.Bg5 Bg7 Only.
Vidéki's The Pirc Defence (2002): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5
the Pirc in Black and White (2007): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5
Chess developents the Pirc (2012): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5
The Perfect Pirc-Modern (2013): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5.
The Pirc move by move (2016): 4.Bg5 Bg7 Only.

Some also cover 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Bg7 6.Bh6 (through various move orders).
And of course there is GM Shaw - Playing 1.e4 (2016) who does cover 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.e5 substantially and well (though he does not cover alternate black fifth moves, 5...Bg7 excluded).

Where does that leave us then?
Basically there seems to be a significant leaning towards 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5, only 6.e5 has not been taken seriously thus far. Of the above books Vigus does best (anyone surprised? ) actually covering 6.e5; although Shaw's suggestion probably just improves over the line Vigus gives.

So we have:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 (The line in Pirc litterature and one which Shaw recently tried to show deficiencies in after 6.e5)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Bg7 (Given in various Pirc litterature as an alternative to the 5...b5 line)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 (Mentioned once in Pirc litterature)
And that is it.

Knowing not many lines are actually covered in Pirc litterature a natural question is to ask if there are alternatives to the above lines, which have not received coverage thus far. From what I can see the following moves have been played (popularity order):

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 h6 (Played but also previously mentioned in the thread - #30)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qb6

Of course chess is about thinking and it would disappointing to miss some nice move for lack of this. So is it possible to think of more moves? Somewhat not entirely out of place looks to me the following:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qc7
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Na6
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 a5
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 e6

Listed above are certainly a handful of black fifth moves, though is any of them attractive enough to form a repertoire around? I don't know but I can say that of all the moves listed (including 5...b5 and 5...Bg7 played hundreds of times) there is only one which I think is good Edit: has potential enough to be used as repertoire staple.

Some day I will elaborate and post some analysis. Until then.

Have a nice day.

Hello.

MNb wrote on 07/31/16 at 01:11:44:

I assume this is the game:


Direct play by white. Unless black fails in coordinating quite badly the best white can hope for should indeed be some kind of mild pressure though.

I am sort of thinking about this 7...Qa5 with 10...c4 line (which, let's mention, is playable via 4.Bg5 move order as well) that it seems like a line where played games (i.e. practice) should actually be quite useful to study. Developments and new games in this line are thus quite eagerly awaited by me.



I should say also that I don't get the trying to hold a draw reasoning about this line. Theoretically black indeed playing to hold a draw but practically I don't see why the line should be seen as an attempt to just hold a draw. Black seems to have reasonable chances to improve his position to me and let's not forget that white has advanced somewhat (and allowed an unusual asymmetrical pawn structure). It should be some kind of game after all. (optimist).

MNb wrote on 07/31/16 at 01:11:44:

I reckon 6.Bh4 followed by f2-f4 (immediately or soon after) is what I'd play. Black will get to play b7-b5 though and then it becomes a setup versus setup fight (to put it simple).

Have a nice day.

Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 07/21/16 at 13:28:35:

Here is a PGN with the above moves:

A few moves were inserted to show that there is another move order that can be used as well.

Michael Ayton wrote on 07/21/16 at 13:28:35:

Being a bit more zoomed in I would say 5.f4 with 6.Qd2, 7.Bd3 and 8.Nf3 is the potentially questioned line.

For the broader question of white's chances after 5.f4 should this Na6+c5 line work well. It can be noted that white can diverge relatively easily indeed. Anywhere between move 6-8 basically (he could of course consider not going 5.f4 as well but how to do this best is another discussion).

Move 6-8 is not such a thrilling period in the white game though since he will need to balance some things. Notably developing and defending his big centre while not allowing black to sort of catch up positionally while he is doing this (i.e. by allowing a black e7-e5 at the right moment or just letting black set up harmoniously somehow). So if you start sifting the various white moves between move 6-8 I would imagine most are harmless (I've checked a little as well witohut finding anything obviously super appealing for white).

Have a nice day.

Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/27/16 at 21:46:08:

This 9...c4 looks like a very nice pawn sacrifice. Would take black any day .

Have a nice day.

@Michael Ayton:
I meant that Shaw seems to consider that 11...Qc5 line the critical line of the entire Pirc chapter. I used to believe Black should avoid it, but now I'm pleasantly surprised that he finds it so challenging for White. Although, as you hinted at, Black may not have much winning chances there.

The sceptical feelings about ...h6 lines are my own, and they don't carry any weight - I have forgotten whatever theory I once knew there, and haven't looked at Shaw's lines against it yet. Wouldn't mind at all if you can make them work for Black of course.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/30/16 at 09:38:07:

Have you had a chance to look at the new Shaw book? I bought it on Forward Chess just now to see his recommendations against the Pirc and the Scandinavian. He (and thus much of the QC team) seem to both agree with many of the observations in this thread (on 4...c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.e5! and the importance of transpositions to 4.Be3 lines, for instance) and at the same time have a lot of respect for the Pirc!

And 7...Qa5 with 11...Qc5 does indeed seem to be critical. Maybe even we Pirc players need to accept that just holding on to a draw with Black is a decent result, especially if White does everything right. Then we can always dabble in even more risky lines (with ...h6 perhaps) against weaker opponents and in absolutely must-win games.