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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 8061 times)
JEH
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #61 - 02/13/17 at 20:54:38
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/13/17 at 16:54:41:
Skillfully, without even aiming for it, I have over 500 of the allowed 11000 characters per post left after posting the pgn


Unfortunately it is too large to download  Sad

There is a PGN button where you can attach it as a .pgn file, could you do that?
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #60 - 02/13/17 at 19:16:34
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Wow, that's some analysis! It'll take me some time to go through it, but I look forward to doing so! But tell me, at the end, why did you reject 18 ...0-0-0? I wonder if it was because of 19 Qb6. After that I thought 19 ...Qc7 20 Qc7 Kc7 (with a lead in development!) might give interesting compensation, but as yet at least I've no idea if it is enough ...
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #59 - 02/13/17 at 16:54:41
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Hello.


Skillfully, without even aiming for it, I have over 500 of the allowed 11000 characters per post left after posting the pgn Cool

So among other things I can ask a general question (one asked not for the first time) of whatever happened to the attach file function?

Also there is space to write that I did not really find a solution to white's pawn grabbing attempts. If he makes them at the ideal time and then executes well he should reach somewhat better positions. Black can of course play most of them without dieing immediately though.

Have a nice day.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #58 - 02/13/17 at 16:07:17
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[quote author=7073797F1E0 link=1466412326/57#57 date=1486982630] [quote]I'm glad of this, since you'd given a somewhat contrary impression ... [quote]
Pardon me for not being a native English speaker, because I totally fail to understand how

"It seems .... trying small"
gives the impression of certainty. Perhaps this?

"I wouldn't mind to play this in a corr. chess game at all; I would call my opening choice a success."
I stick to that one, given how difficult it has become to prove anything more than dead equality in corr. chess.
And now I'm out again - my tolerance for this kind of silliness apparently has become a lot lower compared to five years ago or so.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #57 - 02/13/17 at 10:43:50
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Quote:
What I'm not certain of is if White can turn this lead in development in a concrete advantage or that it will dissipate.

I'm glad of this, since you'd given a somewhat contrary impression ...

Quote:
16...Nxb3 17.cxb3 Qg5 might be more precise.

I was thinking this might be inferior as I was worried about White bringing a Rook to the c-file, but I can't be categorical.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #56 - 02/13/17 at 10:02:14
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Quote:
It's terribly slow. Indeed 13.Ng5 is pointless (then rather 12.Ng5) but White will maintain a lead in development after 13.Rfe1.


Michael Ayton wrote on 02/13/17 at 01:14:02:
Absent concrete analysis, you must forgive me if I'm very much less certain of all this than you seem to be. How do you see the game going after [13 Rfe1] Nh5?

I don't need analysis to count pieces on the board. After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 (4.Bg5) Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Nbd7 12.O-O Nc5 13.Rfe1 White needs two more moves to finish development (if we also count Qh6) and Black four (Ra8, Bc8, Ke8, Rh8).
Since I was four I'm very certain about my counting abilities. What I'm not certain of is if White can turn this lead in development in a concrete advantage or that it will dissipate.

Quote:
I've analysed it a bit and have come to the conclusion that White should not hurry to bring back Her Majesty Home.

How did your analysis of 15 0-0 a5 16 a3 Qg5 run?
[/quote]
Probably not deep enough. In a corr. game I would spend hours and hours.
"12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 Rf8 15.O-O a5 16.a3 Qg5"
16...Nxb3 17.cxb3 Qg5 might be more precise. Or not. That's the bit I'm not sure of
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #55 - 02/13/17 at 01:14:02
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Quote:
It's terribly slow. Indeed 13.Ng5 is pointless (then rather 12.Ng5) but White will maintain a lead in development after 13.Rfe1.

Absent concrete analysis, you must forgive me if I'm very much less certain of all this than you seem to be. How do you see the game going after [13 Rfe1] Nh5?

Quote:
I've analysed it a bit and have come to the conclusion that White should not hurry to bring back Her Majesty Home.

How did your analysis of 15 0-0 a5 16 a3 Qg5 run?

  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #54 - 02/13/17 at 00:16:20
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Actually the plan you outline for Black is an attempt to solve the issues Black is dealing with ....  Cheesy
It's terribly slow. Indeed 13.Ng5 is pointless (then rather 12.Ng5) but White will maintain a lead in development after 13.Rfe1. The remedy for the WQ being offside is never more than one move - just Qe3 or Qh3. Until then Rh8 is even more offside.
Btw in your gambit line (11...Nbd7) something similar applies. Iso 15.Qh6 I'd prefer 15.O-O a5 16.a3 Be6 17.Bxe6 Nxe6 18.Rfd1 Nd4 19.Qh3. As this is part of my repertoire for White (via 4.Be3) I've analysed it a bit and have come to the conclusion that White should not hurry to bring back Her Majesty Home.
It seems a nice choice for White to me - clinging to the pawn or trying to convert the lead in development in a small but lasting positional advantage. I wouldn't mind to play this in a corr. chess game at all; I would call my opening choice a success.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #53 - 02/12/17 at 17:22:31
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Quote:
Black still has some issues to deal with after simply 12.O-O.

Not sure. I was thinking Black could just go 12 ...Nc5 with the idea of ...a5 and then ...Nh5 and ...f6, possibly following with ...Ng7 and ...0-0, depending on what White does. Of course on 13 Ng5 (which I imagine is pointless?) we must take the Bishop first. It's the possibility of doing that which led me to prefer the Knight move on move 11, but that might be wrong. The gambit line looks weird I know, but then the WQ is offside and maybe White's position risks becoming stagnant for all his slight lead in development? -- more work needed!

  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #52 - 02/12/17 at 14:32:09
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Hello.

MNb wrote on 02/11/17 at 20:25:37:
I'm not sure if I'd call this solid as Black is playing a gambit after 12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 an the compensation is not so clear to me (White seems better developed).
At the other Black still has some issues to deal with after simply 12.O-O.

Of course black is not solid everywhere. That wouldn't be any fun. Cheesy

Anyway. Have started to analyse and find myself somewhat drawn to 11...a5!? over 11...Nbd7 (which turns out a bit more passive). Both seem quite playable though

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #51 - 02/11/17 at 20:25:37
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/11/17 at 16:37:09:
Hey.

Interesting move this 7...e5. Black is quite solid indeed.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Nbd7 though.

I'm not sure if I'd call this solid as Black is playing a gambit after 12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 an the compensation is not so clear to me (White seems better developed).
At the other Black still has some issues to deal with after simply 12.O-O.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #50 - 02/11/17 at 17:36:19
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Interesting, thank you! It looks as though there is still plenty of work to be done on these lines ...
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #49 - 02/11/17 at 16:37:09
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Hey.

Interesting move this 7...e5. Black is quite solid indeed. It looks like Shaw's:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 ("Playing 1.e4-Caro-Kann, 1...e5 & Minor Lines, Quality Chess 2016, p.535)
Is the continuation that puts most pressure on black.
10...b5 11.Bb3 Be6?! (only move given by Shaw) Does seem like a considerably less natural way of playing the position compared to your 11...Nbd7 though.

Guess I will have to check 7...e5. If it does work well it is quite a major thing theoretically for the 6.Bh6 variation.

Have a nice day.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #48 - 02/09/17 at 01:06:23
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I’ve been ‘out of it’ lately with huge workloads and so haven’t managed to get with all the analysis, but have still followed the posts with interest. The other day, I started to wonder whether, in the critical 4/5 …c6 variation, it might be good to look again at 4 …Bg7 5 Qd2! c6 6 Bh6 Bh6 7 Qh6 e5. Traditionally thought questionable I know, but White’s Queen is offside so maybe there could be resources? For example, after 8 de de 9 Nf3 Qe7 10 Bc4 b5 11 Bb3, how about 11 …Nbd7!?, not fearing to jettison the h-pawn after 12 Ng5 Rf8 13 Nh7 Nh7 14 Qh7 Nc5? Then after, say, 15 Qh6 a5 16 a3 Be6 17 Be6 Ne6 18 Qe3 0-0-0 19 0-0 Nd4, Black’s pressure looks to be worth exactly one pawn! I notice that the ChessLive database gives one game which went 11 …a5 with the same idea and maybe this is interesting too, though I think 11 …Nbd7 might be more precise.

Of course White has other choices, chiefly 8 0-0-0. Then after 8 …Qe7 9 Nf3 Nbd7, James Vigus in his first book says the sacrificial line 10 h3 b5 11 Bb5 ab 12 Nb5 Qc5 13 Nd6 Ke7 is difficult for Black, but this looks most unclear to me (e.g. 14 Rd2 Rb8 with ...Rb2 threats) and quite possibly OK for Black if he’s prepared. (And if this is too hairy Black can try 9 …Bg4 instead: after something like 10 d5 a6 11 Be2 cd 12 Nd5 Nd5 13 Rd5 Nc6 or 11 dc Nc6 12 Bc4 Bf3 13 gf Nd4 White may claim a certain advantage, but is it so serious?) Meanwhile White can try 9 f3 iso 9 Nf3, but this looks perhaps less critical after 9 …b5 (or 9 …Nbd7 first).

I don’t have the latest sources and maybe some of these lines are discussed there. Any thoughts?
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #47 - 12/20/16 at 06:22:24
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 12/19/16 at 10:11:33:
Wow, that's some epic analysis CbT  Cool
Thank you.

Ideally the analysis would have been less "epic" Smiley. There was a lot to analyse though.

JEH wrote on 12/19/16 at 10:11:33:
A lot further than I got. I'd got some lines where black had gone f5 after f6 with a criss-cross pawn structure.

Seemed interesting and unbalanced and but possibly not quite equalising, where the old books would have copped out with the infinity symbol. Typical of the Pirc and hence OK in my book  Wink

The comp wants to defend e4 and in the process steady up the position a bit. This is certainly one way of playing chess and could even work in practice (otb though, probably not correspondence).

Being a human I naturally don't care about
a) Having a secure position
b) pawns

So counterattacking plans were on the agenda and most of the time the black position seemed to allow this; which was nice Smiley.

Have a nice day.
  
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