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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 24678 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #48 - 02/09/17 at 01:06:23
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Ive been out of it lately with huge workloads and so havent managed to get with all the analysis, but have still followed the posts with interest. The other day, I started to wonder whether, in the critical 4/5 c6 variation, it might be good to look again at 4 Bg7 5 Qd2! c6 6 Bh6 Bh6 7 Qh6 e5. Traditionally thought questionable I know, but Whites Queen is offside so maybe there could be resources? For example, after 8 de de 9 Nf3 Qe7 10 Bc4 b5 11 Bb3, how about 11 Nbd7!?, not fearing to jettison the h-pawn after 12 Ng5 Rf8 13 Nh7 Nh7 14 Qh7 Nc5? Then after, say, 15 Qh6 a5 16 a3 Be6 17 Be6 Ne6 18 Qe3 0-0-0 19 0-0 Nd4, Blacks pressure looks to be worth exactly one pawn! I notice that the ChessLive database gives one game which went 11 a5 with the same idea and maybe this is interesting too, though I think 11 Nbd7 might be more precise.

Of course White has other choices, chiefly 8 0-0-0. Then after 8 Qe7 9 Nf3 Nbd7, James Vigus in his first book says the sacrificial line 10 h3 b5 11 Bb5 ab 12 Nb5 Qc5 13 Nd6 Ke7 is difficult for Black, but this looks most unclear to me (e.g. 14 Rd2 Rb8 with ...Rb2 threats) and quite possibly OK for Black if hes prepared. (And if this is too hairy Black can try 9 Bg4 instead: after something like 10 d5 a6 11 Be2 cd 12 Nd5 Nd5 13 Rd5 Nc6 or 11 dc Nc6 12 Bc4 Bf3 13 gf Nd4 White may claim a certain advantage, but is it so serious?) Meanwhile White can try 9 f3 iso 9 Nf3, but this looks perhaps less critical after 9 b5 (or 9 Nbd7 first).

I dont have the latest sources and maybe some of these lines are discussed there. Any thoughts?
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #47 - 12/20/16 at 06:22:24
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 12/19/16 at 10:11:33:
Wow, that's some epic analysis CbT  Cool
Thank you.

Ideally the analysis would have been less "epic" Smiley. There was a lot to analyse though.

JEH wrote on 12/19/16 at 10:11:33:
A lot further than I got. I'd got some lines where black had gone f5 after f6 with a criss-cross pawn structure.

Seemed interesting and unbalanced and but possibly not quite equalising, where the old books would have copped out with the infinity symbol. Typical of the Pirc and hence OK in my book  Wink

The comp wants to defend e4 and in the process steady up the position a bit. This is certainly one way of playing chess and could even work in practice (otb though, probably not correspondence).

Being a human I naturally don't care about
a) Having a secure position
b) pawns

So counterattacking plans were on the agenda and most of the time the black position seemed to allow this; which was nice Smiley.

Have a nice day.
  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #46 - 12/19/16 at 10:11:33
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Wow, that's some epic analysis CbT  Cool

A lot further than I got. I'd got some lines where black had gone f5 after f6 with a criss-cross pawn structure.

Seemed interesting and unbalanced and but possibly not quite equalising, where the old books would have copped out with the infinity symbol. Typical of the Pirc and hence OK in my book  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #45 - 12/19/16 at 02:53:02
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Hello.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.f4 d5 7.e5 Ne4 8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Ne2
Analysis below:

About the PGN analysis.
I'll just note that 11...Nxf6 in the PGN mainline, instead of 11...exf6 looks key if you want to avoid suffering as black. An earlier comment of mine about black possibly being denied equality after 9.Ne2 was based on me thinking 11...exf6 was more or less the way to go for black. The alternative 11...Nxf6 looks fully reasonable if you look at it for a while though, despite the structural degradation.

Also. It should be said that quite a high level of precision is needed here. Mostly for black, as always; even though there are ample chances for him to also pose problems for white and equalise very early against non-knowledgeable play and setups.

Analysis of 9.Bc4 and 9.Nh3 found in post #41 btw.

Have a nice day.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #44 - 12/18/16 at 16:17:38
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/18/16 at 08:21:49:
Hi.

Glenn Snow wrote on 12/17/16 at 20:20:47:
Is there anything to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 a6!!? or 4.Bg4 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6!? for Black?
Don't see it, but it would be nice.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 a6 5.e5
and now:
5...dxe5 6.dxe5 Now a6 will be almost irrelevant and the threat on the knight is annoying.
5...h6 6.Bf4 Nh5 (6...Nfd7 7.e6!? black gets an uninspiring position) 7.Be3 Basically black has no effective way of undermining the e5 point so white simply has a pleasant position.
5...Nfd7 6.Qe2 (Shaw's recommendation) Black can not in the near term effectively hit white's center and needs to find some way of developing without being hit himself (no easy task).

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6 6.Bh6
Thematic.
6...Bxh6 (6...0-0 7.0-0-0 b5 8.f3 White is better positionally. If 7...Nc6 8.h4 is strong.) 7.Qxh6 Black is not losing to an attack, but he is handicapped positionally from having exchanged his dark squared bishop.

Have a nice day.


Well I can still recommend it to any future opponents.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #43 - 12/18/16 at 08:21:49
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Hi.

Glenn Snow wrote on 12/17/16 at 20:20:47:
Is there anything to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 a6!!? or 4.Bg4 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6!? for Black?
Don't see it, but it would be nice.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 a6 5.e5
and now:
5...dxe5 6.dxe5 Now a6 will be almost irrelevant and the threat on the knight is annoying.
5...h6 6.Bf4 Nh5 (6...Nfd7 7.e6!? black gets an uninspiring position) 7.Be3 Basically black has no effective way of undermining the e5 point so white simply has a pleasant position.
5...Nfd7 6.Qe2 (Shaw's recommendation) Black can not in the near term effectively hit white's center and needs to find some way of developing without being hit himself (no easy task).

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6 6.Bh6
Thematic.
6...Bxh6 (6...0-0 7.0-0-0 b5 8.f3 White is better positionally. If 7...Nc6 8.h4 is strong.) 7.Qxh6 Black is not losing to an attack, but he is handicapped positionally from having exchanged his dark squared bishop.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #42 - 12/17/16 at 20:20:47
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Is there anything to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 a6!!? or 4.Bg4 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6!? for Black?
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #41 - 12/16/16 at 18:18:57
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 12/15/16 at 19:29:56:
6. f4 d5!? in an interersting novelty to blow a hole in the White pawn centre

This 6...d5 move is the move to make work in order to put 5...Nbd7 on the table as a viable option for a repertoire.

When checking 6...d5 exploratively a few days ago I was very optimistic about black's chances and the positions he tended to get; which where of the unbalanced but still sound looking type. Now I don't know know really. White has a line where he has to show enormous accuracy, though in this line black seems to be denied equality and instead ends up searching for safe positions (which I have yet been able to force in analysis).


Edit (20161217): added some analysis of the two seemingly less critical continuations:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.f4 d5 7.e5 Ne4 8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Bc4 and 9.Nh3.
Still no picnic for black though!

Critical imo seems to be 9.Ne2 but I defer on posting analysis on that for the moment. There is a lot to work out Tongue.



Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: 12/17/16 at 08:21:48 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #40 - 12/15/16 at 19:29:56
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/14/16 at 16:42:11:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7


Here's a tasty titbit from my database, in this line

6. f4 d5!? in an interersting novelty to blow a hole in the White pawn centre, and so

6. 0-0-0 when you've got White's King committed for the usual pawn storm without you having even played Bg7 Cool
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #39 - 12/15/16 at 15:50:32
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Hello.

JEH wrote on 12/15/16 at 09:41:53:
I think the way to play the Pirc (and Modern) is to have various options ready

Fully agree. The plan behind investigating 4.Bg5 c6 is to find some decent line here for black, in order to make white's task harder.

RdC wrote on 12/15/16 at 10:23:01:
Once you play ..c6, you are committed to a particular structure and ideas. There are alternatives to 4. .. c6, some of which can transpose.

Conceptually I see 4...c6 as preparation for b5 or d5, though almost everyone goes for b5 based setups and after having gone b5 going d5 becomes harder.
A definite point behind c6 is also that black can send his queen to a5 early.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #38 - 12/15/16 at 15:47:24
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RdC wrote on 12/15/16 at 10:23:01:
Personally I think the "Modern" move order with 1. e4 d6 2. d4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. any a6 is a better try


1. e4 d6 2. d4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Bh6 a6??   Wink


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #37 - 12/15/16 at 10:23:01
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/14/16 at 16:42:11:
Hi.

Been contemplating how to play this as black:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2


Once you play ..c6, you are committed to a particular structure and ideas. There are alternatives to 4. .. c6, some of which can transpose.

Personally I think the "Modern" move order with 1. e4 d6 2. d4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. any a6 is a better try, but 3. Nc3 isn't forced, 3. c4 or 4. f4 could be played.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #36 - 12/15/16 at 09:41:53
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/14/16 at 16:42:11:
used as repertoire staple.


I think the way to play the Pirc (and Modern) is to have various options ready.

Duck and dive, bob and weave, twist and turn like a twisty turny thing Cheesy

So cut out all of these lines from your repertoire books and staple them together! [I have actually done this with some old falling apart books  Shocked]
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #35 - 12/14/16 at 16:42:11
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Hi.

Been contemplating how to play this as black:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2

Pirc Litterature does not give an abundance of ideas. This is what is covered basically:

The Ultimate Pirc (1998): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5 and brief coverage of 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7
Pirc Alert (2001): 4.Bg5 Bg7 Only.
Vidki's The Pirc Defence (2002): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5
the Pirc in Black and White (2007): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5
Chess developents the Pirc (2012): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5
The Perfect Pirc-Modern (2013): 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 without the reply 6.e5.
The Pirc move by move (2016): 4.Bg5 Bg7 Only.

Some also cover 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Bg7 6.Bh6 (through various move orders).
And of course there is GM Shaw - Playing 1.e4 (2016) who does cover 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.e5 substantially and well (though he does not cover alternate black fifth moves, 5...Bg7 excluded).

Where does that leave us then?
Basically there seems to be a significant leaning towards 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5, only 6.e5 has not been taken seriously thus far. Of the above books Vigus does best (anyone surprised? Smiley) actually covering 6.e5; although Shaw's suggestion probably just improves over the line Vigus gives.

So we have:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 b5 (The line in Pirc litterature and one which Shaw recently tried to show deficiencies in after 6.e5)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Bg7 (Given in various Pirc litterature as an alternative to the 5...b5 line)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 (Mentioned once in Pirc litterature)
And that is it.

Knowing not many lines are actually covered in Pirc litterature a natural question is to ask if there are alternatives to the above lines, which have not received coverage thus far. From what I can see the following moves have been played (popularity order):

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 h6 (Played but also previously mentioned in the thread - #30)
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qb6

Of course chess is about thinking and it would disappointing to miss some nice move for lack of this. So is it possible to think of more moves? Somewhat not entirely out of place looks to me the following:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Qc7
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Na6
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 a5
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 e6

Listed above are certainly a handful of black fifth moves, though is any of them attractive enough to form a repertoire around? I don't know but I can say that of all the moves listed (including 5...b5 and 5...Bg7 played hundreds of times) there is only one which I think is good Edit: has potential enough to be used as repertoire staple.

Some day I will elaborate and post some analysis. Until then.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #34 - 11/28/16 at 22:35:02
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Good evening.

The other day I came here to check a few lines and found that the PGN in #33 was to large to download Cry. Later I remembered the workaround Smiley.

It seems fair for everyone that I attach the PGN-file to a post in order to make downloading possible and so was gonna do that here and now. Only there does not seem to be an option for that (It is usually a sort of small menu labeled attachments, found under all the smilies, yet it does not appear for some reason). Anyone know why?



In terms of chess I have actually looked at a few lines from the pgn in reply #33 a bit deeper since posting that. Especially against the rare (don't know if it's even been played) but challenging looking:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.f4 Bg7 6.Qd2 0-0 7.Bh4
I think there is a nice move that I missed in the reply #33 PGN.

Being sort of mildly optimistic of both black's chances to create play and his ability to get OK positions after
4.Bg5 c6 5.f4
now that I've looked a bit at some lines and having been made aware of the nice looking idea
4.Bg5 c6 5.f4 Bg7 6.Qd2 0-0 7.Bd3 Na6 8.Nf3 c5 9.d5 c4!?
, making black's life if not easy then at least reasonably fun, I'm thinking maybe it is time to find something nice against
4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2
as well. Having that along with maybe some lines against
4.Bg5 c6 5.Nf3
Would actually constitute some sort of a 4.Bg5 c6 repertoire. Possibly this is nice to be able to play practically as Byrne players would probably be more used to the 4.Bg5 Bg7 lines.

Anyway If I see something against 5.Qd2 I may make a similar post to the one on 5.f4.

Have a nice day.
  
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