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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 92129 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #52 - 02/12/17 at 14:32:09
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Hello.

MNb wrote on 02/11/17 at 20:25:37:
I'm not sure if I'd call this solid as Black is playing a gambit after 12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 an the compensation is not so clear to me (White seems better developed).
At the other Black still has some issues to deal with after simply 12.O-O.

Of course black is not solid everywhere. That wouldn't be any fun. Cheesy

Anyway. Have started to analyse and find myself somewhat drawn to 11...a5!? over 11...Nbd7 (which turns out a bit more passive). Both seem quite playable though

Have a nice day.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #51 - 02/11/17 at 20:25:37
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/11/17 at 16:37:09:
Hey.

Interesting move this 7...e5. Black is quite solid indeed.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 Nbd7 though.

I'm not sure if I'd call this solid as Black is playing a gambit after 12.Ng5 Rf8 13.Nxh7 Nxh7 14.Qxh7 an the compensation is not so clear to me (White seems better developed).
At the other Black still has some issues to deal with after simply 12.O-O.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #50 - 02/11/17 at 17:36:19
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Interesting, thank you! It looks as though there is still plenty of work to be done on these lines ...
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #49 - 02/11/17 at 16:37:09
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Hey.

Interesting move this 7...e5. Black is quite solid indeed. It looks like Shaw's:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 ("Playing 1.e4-Caro-Kann, 1...e5 & Minor Lines, Quality Chess 2016, p.535)
Is the continuation that puts most pressure on black.
10...b5 11.Bb3 Be6?! (only move given by Shaw) Does seem like a considerably less natural way of playing the position compared to your 11...Nbd7 though.

Guess I will have to check 7...e5. If it does work well it is quite a major thing theoretically for the 6.Bh6 variation.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #48 - 02/09/17 at 01:06:23
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I’ve been ‘out of it’ lately with huge workloads and so haven’t managed to get with all the analysis, but have still followed the posts with interest. The other day, I started to wonder whether, in the critical 4/5 …c6 variation, it might be good to look again at 4 …Bg7 5 Qd2! c6 6 Bh6 Bh6 7 Qh6 e5. Traditionally thought questionable I know, but White’s Queen is offside so maybe there could be resources? For example, after 8 de de 9 Nf3 Qe7 10 Bc4 b5 11 Bb3, how about 11 …Nbd7!?, not fearing to jettison the h-pawn after 12 Ng5 Rf8 13 Nh7 Nh7 14 Qh7 Nc5? Then after, say, 15 Qh6 a5 16 a3 Be6 17 Be6 Ne6 18 Qe3 0-0-0 19 0-0 Nd4, Black’s pressure looks to be worth exactly one pawn! I notice that the ChessLive database gives one game which went 11 …a5 with the same idea and maybe this is interesting too, though I think 11 …Nbd7 might be more precise.

Of course White has other choices, chiefly 8 0-0-0. Then after 8 …Qe7 9 Nf3 Nbd7, James Vigus in his first book says the sacrificial line 10 h3 b5 11 Bb5 ab 12 Nb5 Qc5 13 Nd6 Ke7 is difficult for Black, but this looks most unclear to me (e.g. 14 Rd2 Rb8 with ...Rb2 threats) and quite possibly OK for Black if he’s prepared. (And if this is too hairy Black can try 9 …Bg4 instead: after something like 10 d5 a6 11 Be2 cd 12 Nd5 Nd5 13 Rd5 Nc6 or 11 dc Nc6 12 Bc4 Bf3 13 gf Nd4 White may claim a certain advantage, but is it so serious?) Meanwhile White can try 9 f3 iso 9 Nf3, but this looks perhaps less critical after 9 …b5 (or 9 …Nbd7 first).

I don’t have the latest sources and maybe some of these lines are discussed there. Any thoughts?
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #47 - 12/20/16 at 06:22:24
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 12/19/16 at 10:11:33:
Wow, that's some epic analysis CbT  Cool
Thank you.

Ideally the analysis would have been less "epic" Smiley. There was a lot to analyse though.

JEH wrote on 12/19/16 at 10:11:33:
A lot further than I got. I'd got some lines where black had gone f5 after f6 with a criss-cross pawn structure.

Seemed interesting and unbalanced and but possibly not quite equalising, where the old books would have copped out with the infinity symbol. Typical of the Pirc and hence OK in my book  Wink

The comp wants to defend e4 and in the process steady up the position a bit. This is certainly one way of playing chess and could even work in practice (otb though, probably not correspondence).

Being a human I naturally don't care about
a) Having a secure position
b) pawns

So counterattacking plans were on the agenda and most of the time the black position seemed to allow this; which was nice Smiley.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #46 - 12/19/16 at 10:11:33
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Wow, that's some epic analysis CbT  Cool

A lot further than I got. I'd got some lines where black had gone f5 after f6 with a criss-cross pawn structure.

Seemed interesting and unbalanced and but possibly not quite equalising, where the old books would have copped out with the infinity symbol. Typical of the Pirc and hence OK in my book  Wink
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #45 - 12/19/16 at 02:53:02
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Hello.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.f4 d5 7.e5 Ne4 8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Ne2
Analysis below:

About the PGN analysis.
I'll just note that 11...Nxf6 in the PGN mainline, instead of 11...exf6 looks key if you want to avoid suffering as black. An earlier comment of mine about black possibly being denied equality after 9.Ne2 was based on me thinking 11...exf6 was more or less the way to go for black. The alternative 11...Nxf6 looks fully reasonable if you look at it for a while though, despite the structural degradation.

Also. It should be said that quite a high level of precision is needed here. Mostly for black, as always; even though there are ample chances for him to also pose problems for white and equalise very early against non-knowledgeable play and setups.

Analysis of 9.Bc4 and 9.Nh3 found in post #41 btw.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #44 - 12/18/16 at 16:17:38
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/18/16 at 08:21:49:
Hi.

Glenn Snow wrote on 12/17/16 at 20:20:47:
Is there anything to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 a6!!? or 4.Bg4 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6!? for Black?
Don't see it, but it would be nice.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 a6 5.e5
and now:
5...dxe5 6.dxe5 Now a6 will be almost irrelevant and the threat on the knight is annoying.
5...h6 6.Bf4 Nh5 (6...Nfd7 7.e6!? black gets an uninspiring position) 7.Be3 Basically black has no effective way of undermining the e5 point so white simply has a pleasant position.
5...Nfd7 6.Qe2 (Shaw's recommendation) Black can not in the near term effectively hit white's center and needs to find some way of developing without being hit himself (no easy task).

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6 6.Bh6
Thematic.
6...Bxh6 (6...0-0 7.0-0-0 b5 8.f3 White is better positionally. If 7...Nc6 8.h4 is strong.) 7.Qxh6 Black is not losing to an attack, but he is handicapped positionally from having exchanged his dark squared bishop.

Have a nice day.


Well I can still recommend it to any future opponents.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #43 - 12/18/16 at 08:21:49
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Hi.

Glenn Snow wrote on 12/17/16 at 20:20:47:
Is there anything to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 a6!!? or 4.Bg4 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6!? for Black?
Don't see it, but it would be nice.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 a6 5.e5
and now:
5...dxe5 6.dxe5 Now a6 will be almost irrelevant and the threat on the knight is annoying.
5...h6 6.Bf4 Nh5 (6...Nfd7 7.e6!? black gets an uninspiring position) 7.Be3 Basically black has no effective way of undermining the e5 point so white simply has a pleasant position.
5...Nfd7 6.Qe2 (Shaw's recommendation) Black can not in the near term effectively hit white's center and needs to find some way of developing without being hit himself (no easy task).

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6 6.Bh6
Thematic.
6...Bxh6 (6...0-0 7.0-0-0 b5 8.f3 White is better positionally. If 7...Nc6 8.h4 is strong.) 7.Qxh6 Black is not losing to an attack, but he is handicapped positionally from having exchanged his dark squared bishop.

Have a nice day.
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #42 - 12/17/16 at 20:20:47
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Is there anything to 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 a6!!? or 4.Bg4 Bg7 5.Qd2 a6!? for Black?
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #41 - 12/16/16 at 18:18:57
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 12/15/16 at 19:29:56:
6. f4 d5!? in an interersting novelty to blow a hole in the White pawn centre

This 6...d5 move is the move to make work in order to put 5...Nbd7 on the table as a viable option for a repertoire.

When checking 6...d5 exploratively a few days ago I was very optimistic about black's chances and the positions he tended to get; which where of the unbalanced but still sound looking type. Now I don't know know really. White has a line where he has to show enormous accuracy, though in this line black seems to be denied equality and instead ends up searching for safe positions (which I have yet been able to force in analysis).


Edit (20161217): added some analysis of the two seemingly less critical continuations:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.f4 d5 7.e5 Ne4 8.Nxe4 dxe4 9.Bc4 and 9.Nh3.
Still no picnic for black though!

Critical imo seems to be 9.Ne2 but I defer on posting analysis on that for the moment. There is a lot to work out Tongue.



Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: 12/17/16 at 08:21:48 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #40 - 12/15/16 at 19:29:56
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/14/16 at 16:42:11:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7


Here's a tasty titbit from my database, in this line

6. f4 d5!? in an interersting novelty to blow a hole in the White pawn centre, and so

6. 0-0-0 when you've got White's King committed for the usual pawn storm without you having even played Bg7  Cool
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #39 - 12/15/16 at 15:50:32
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Hello.

JEH wrote on 12/15/16 at 09:41:53:
I think the way to play the Pirc (and Modern) is to have various options ready

Fully agree. The plan behind investigating 4.Bg5 c6 is to find some decent line here for black, in order to make white's task harder.

RdC wrote on 12/15/16 at 10:23:01:
Once you play ..c6, you are committed to a particular structure and ideas. There are alternatives to 4. .. c6, some of which can transpose.

Conceptually I see 4...c6 as preparation for b5 or d5, though almost everyone goes for b5 based setups and after having gone b5 going d5 becomes harder.
A definite point behind c6 is also that black can send his queen to a5 early.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #38 - 12/15/16 at 15:47:24
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RdC wrote on 12/15/16 at 10:23:01:
Personally I think the "Modern" move order with 1. e4 d6 2. d4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. any a6 is a better try


1. e4 d6 2. d4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Bh6 a6??   Wink


  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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