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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 17626 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #97 - 07/11/17 at 21:34:54
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 07/11/17 at 17:09:25:
I was confused by theory but then confused by theory showed my theory confusion was a only confusion that my confusion was theoretical  Smiley

You are welcome Grin

To follow up a bit on my earlier post.
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.0-0-0 c6 8.f4 b5 9.e5 b4 10.exf6 bxc3 11.Qxc3 Bxf6 12.Bxf6 exf6 13.h3!?
might be a decent try for some edge. For example:
13...f5 14.g4 Qf6 15.Qd2 Re8
15...fxg4!? 16.hxg4 Bxg4 17.Be2 Bf5 18.Bf3 Looks like at least sufficient compensation.
16.g5 hxg5 17.fxg5 Qe6 18.b3 And white does seem to have the slightly more comfortable position in my opinion.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #96 - 07/11/17 at 17:09:25
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I was confused by theory but then confused by theory showed my theory confusion was a only confusion that my confusion was theoretical  Smiley
  

"Football is like Chess, only without the dice."

"Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations."
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #95 - 07/11/17 at 12:50:28
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Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/27/17 at 10:29:39:
Many thanks for all this hard work, C_b_T! I regret I haven't had time lately to look at things closely, but one evening a week or two ago I was doing what you're not meant to do, namely just running an engine and watching passively, and it came up with something I thought quite interesting after 12 Bf6 ef 13 Nf3 in the line above, namely 13 ...a5!?. The idea I guess is to delay ...Be6 for the moment and to enable a possible ...Ra7. The sequel was fascinating!: 14 Re1 f5 15 h4 (15 Rg1?! Nd7) h5 16 Ng5 Ra7 17 Rh3 Ba6 18 Rg3 Bf1, and now came a wild attack! -- 19 d5!? Re8 20 Ne6! fe 21 Rg6 ...

Looking at this again very quickly I have no idea whether Black can defend or not. Maybe he can, but it sure looks dangerous, and I take your point about White having other options anyway. All in all, maybe Black should grit his teeth and accede to the tedious endgame line after all ...

I'm not sure about some of those moves. White's strategy seemed a bit based on that carneval games where you have to throw and knock down an entire pyramid of cans with a set number of balls. It felt like the attempts kept coming at fast pace without any finesse and in the end position I think black is going to hold and probbably without problems if white does not have some nice idea.

Since I brought up the subject of finesse, maybe white can consider 13...a5 14.h3!? to prepare g4+Bg2 and give black a less secure structure in the long term (13.h3 sort of comes to mind as well even if looks like a less good version).

Have a nice day.

Edit:
General observations on 4.Bg5 lines... If white plays the absolute best lines with some accuracy I don't think the picture looks great.

Ideally I would like 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.0-0-0 c6 8.f4 b5 9.e5 dxe5 to work. Although as I mentioned white has 10.dxe5 and the f4+e5 wedge is not fun to meet.

Then there is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.0-0-0 c6 8.f4 b5 9.e5 b4 although in this you need to degrade your structure and play fairly prospectless positions, which even though white has no immediate breakthroughs look not really trustworthy imo.

If all else there is this endgame line with 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 and yea... 7...Qa5 or 7...e5. I am fairly certain these are not the lines of the future though.

I have come to the conclusion that I will just give up on 4.Bg5 Bg7 for now and try 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 next time I face 4.Bg5. If nothing else it's a line that needs proving in practice (and also probably a bit more proof of concept analysis as well... Roll Eyes)

  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #94 - 06/27/17 at 10:29:39
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Many thanks for all this hard work, C_b_T! I regret I haven't had time lately to look at things closely, but one evening a week or two ago I was doing what you're not meant to do, namely just running an engine and watching passively, and it came up with something I thought quite interesting after 12 Bf6 ef 13 Nf3 in the line above, namely 13 ...a5!?. The idea I guess is to delay ...Be6 for the moment and to enable a possible ...Ra7. The sequel was fascinating!: 14 Re1 f5 15 h4 (15 Rg1?! Nd7) h5 16 Ng5 Ra7 17 Rh3 Ba6 18 Rg3 Bf1, and now came a wild attack! -- 19 d5!? Re8 20 Ne6! fe 21 Rg6 ...

Looking at this again very quickly I have no idea whether Black can defend or not. Maybe he can, but it sure looks dangerous, and I take your point about White having other options anyway. All in all, maybe Black should grit his teeth and accede to the tedious endgame line after all ...
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #93 - 06/14/17 at 19:35:40
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Hello.

Alright. Here is some updated analysis of this whole 11...Bxf6 line. For anynone who does delve into the analysis posted on this forum. I think I Managed to bust my old main move of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.0-0-0 c6 8.f4 b5 9.e5 b4 10.exf6 bxc3 11.Qxc3 Bxf6 12.Bxf6 exf6 13.Nxf3

13...Be6
Which is a bit of a shame because the alternative:
13...f5
Looks less fun, even if it is relatively speaking more solid.
If a bust of this latter move is found I would worry about black's chances after 11...Bxf6. Perhaps as likely though my analysis can be improved and 13...f5 showed to be sufficient.


File attached.

Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: 06/14/17 at 22:20:57 by Confused_by_Theory »  

Pirc_Byrne_variation_analysis.pgn ( 10 KB | 34 Downloads )
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #92 - 06/14/17 at 18:41:46
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Hello AlekseiNK and thanks for posting the game.

13.Bd3 is definitely an attempt but I doubt it can be critical. The d3 square itself is a bit dumb for the bishop since black is about to play f6-f5 and more importantly taking on c6, seemingly the only decent follow up, does not look sufficient. Apart from Campbell's 16...Rb8 also 16...h5  looks alright and is what I looked at in earlier analysis. (second edit: Also, for what its worth, maybe white can force the position after 16...h5 if he wants). Probably white should try not going 16.h4 and instead turtle up with 16.Qc3 but I don't really think it brings great benefit (black gets his pieces out anyhow). Then again it is a pawn and sometimes even turtles can bite if you give them the chance (luckily not known from experience).

I will look a bit deeper at this whole 11...Bxf6 continuation and probably repost my old analysis in extended form. Tentatively I think that if black plays really precise he can avoid the most dreadful defensive position and probably equalise in the long run. This is by no means clear without a fair bit of analysis though.

Have a nice day.

Edit: Also. 11...exf6, keeping things on the board, looks not really like a hot contender for equaliser; even if that is what I would have wanted.
Second Edit:
In the line: (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.0-0-0 c6 8.f4 b5)
I notice the same black player losing a game after 9.Bxf6. This move looks like a fairly dangerous way of playing for white as well (idea should be after 9...Bxf6 a quick h4-h5 if black does nothing).
« Last Edit: 06/14/17 at 22:07:00 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #91 - 06/14/17 at 11:37:49
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 06/05/17 at 20:27:30:
Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/05/17 at 15:59:54:
I fear I may be out of date here!? I had thought Black was OK after 6 ...0-0 7 0-0-0 c6 8 f4 b5 9 Bd3 (9 e5 de 10 fe Nd5) b4 10 Nce2 Qa5 11 Kb1 Nbd7 -- can White significantly improve?

10.dxe5 would be my choice for sure. I posted some analysis of this in the Kornev book thread (reply 14). I believe there is nothing obviously better than going into what looks like a mildly unpleasant two pieces vs rook endgame.

There is also Kornev's 9...b4 but then 10.exf6 is surely critical and 10...bxc3 11.Qxc3 Bxf6 (!? - Kornev) does not seem like an ideal solution. Possibly it could somehow be alright for black; I guess. White looks a bit more comfortable though. Possibly instead of this 11...exf6 is the move but this leads to not easily understood chess.

And there are some 8th move options for white as well (8.Kb1, 8.Qe3 and 8.Qe1 - presumably all novel ideas)

Have a nice day.





  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #90 - 06/05/17 at 20:27:30
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/05/17 at 15:59:54:
I fear I may be out of date here!? I had thought Black was OK after 6 ...0-0 7 0-0-0 c6 8 f4 b5 9 Bd3 (9 e5 de 10 fe Nd5) b4 10 Nce2 Qa5 11 Kb1 Nbd7 -- can White significantly improve?

10.dxe5 would be my choice for sure. I posted some analysis of this in the Kornev book thread (reply 14). I believe there is nothing obviously better than going into what looks like a mildly unpleasant two pieces vs rook endgame.

There is also Kornev's 9...b4 but then 10.exf6 is surely critical and 10...bxc3 11.Qxc3 Bxf6 (!? - Kornev) does not seem like an ideal solution. Possibly it could somehow be alright for black; I guess. White looks a bit more comfortable though. Possibly instead of this 11...exf6 is the move but this leads to not easily understood chess.

And there are some 8th move options for white as well (8.Kb1, 8.Qe3 and 8.Qe1 - presumably all novel ideas)

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #89 - 06/05/17 at 15:59:54
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Quote:
A few pitholes in these 6.Bf4 a6 7.Nf3 lines it seems.

Not sure. In the 7 ...Nc6!? line Black is semi-forcing White to use a tempo on 8 h3, so maybe he's well set up to sac a pawn after (e.g.) 8 ...b5 9 Bd3 Bb7 10 e5 de 11 de Nd5 12 0-0 Nf4 13 Qf4 e6 14 a4 0-0!?, with sufficient comp.? Also, in the 7 ...b5 line above with 11 Qe3 Nc6, perhaps Black is OK after e.g. 12 c3 de 13 de e6 14 h4 Ne7!? (intending ...c5)? (My strongest engine goes 14 ...Qb8!?, idea ...Qb6, but maybe that's a bit slow/artificial?)

Quote:
Still think the main problem is 6.Bh4 though.

I fear I may be out of date here!? I had thought Black was OK after 6 ...0-0 7 0-0-0 c6 8 f4 b5 9 Bd3 (9 e5 de 10 fe Nd5) b4 10 Nce2 Qa5 11 Kb1 Nbd7 -- can White significantly improve?
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #88 - 06/05/17 at 01:26:54
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/04/17 at 23:08:30:
I'm still not sure I like 7 ...e6 -- can't White go 11 f4 in your line?

Yes he can Grin. Apparently
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bf4 a6 7.Nf3 e6 8.e5 dxe5 9.Nxe5 Nh5 10.Be3 Nd7 11.f4

11...Qh4+ 12.g3! Nxg3 13.hxg3 Qxh1 14.0-0-0 Qh5 15.Ne4! f5 16.Be2 is good for white (which I just missed) so 7...e6 is probably fairly dubious positionally. White gets a decent grip and black can't strike back early in part because white has this idea of giving the rook.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/04/17 at 23:08:30:
8 h3!? and something like 8 ...b5 9 Bd3 Bb7 10 e5 de 11 fe Nd5 ...?

Maybe even 9...Nd7 but then the deep 10.Be3 (10.d5 Nce5 looks to not obviously bring white closer to any advantage) might force black to go e7-e5 when he'd rather not really do that. Problem is white is placed to harmoniously so if black does nothing white can hit with a4 and because white is placed harmoniously normalising (Wink) the game with e7-e5 looks not greatly timed.


A few pitholes in these 6.Bf4 a6 7.Nf3 lines it seems.
Still think the main problem is 6.Bh4 though. Not really finding anything great there for black. We'll see if Marin goes for it I guess.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #87 - 06/04/17 at 23:08:30
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Quote:
7.Nf3 e6 8.e5 is definitely an idea ...  I don't think you should be displeased as black after 8...dxe5 9.Nxe5 Nh5 10.Be3 Nd7.

I'm still not sure I like 7 ...e6 -- can't White go 11 f4 in your line? But 7 ...Nc6!? might be a neat idea! I can see that 8 Bd3 now allows 8 ...Nd4 and 8 Bc4 could meet with 8 ...Bg4. 8 Be2 is possible (transposing to 7 Be2! Grin) but then 8 ...e6 looks good -- after 9 0-0-0 perhaps both 9 ...b5 and 9 ...g5 are playable. So maybe better is 8 h3!? and something like 8 ...b5 9 Bd3 Bb7 10 e5 de 11 fe Nd5 ...?

But I still like the 7 ...b5 line. Black has strongpointed the d5 square and I reckon he'll probably play ...dxe5 at some point, when White's centre doesn't look too mighty ...
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #86 - 06/02/17 at 17:28:13
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Hello.

Michael Ayton wrote on 06/01/17 at 23:56:23:
I haven't looked at this closely, but I was a bit worried about the immediate 8 e5. I thought Black's best might be 7 ...b5 as in Chernetskiy-Tkachiev. There, White replied 9 a3 (fishy, surely!) and after 8 ...Bb7 9 d5? c6 soon collapsed and came second. I imagined that best might be something like 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 e5 Nd5 10 Nd5 (10 e6 f5) Bd5 11 Qe3 Nc6!?. Maybe OK for Black? -- I'm not sure.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bf4 a6

7.Be2 Nc6 Looks about right indeed. One can argue white will probably not be so inclined to play Bf3 now making Be2 presumably not the most meaningfully placed piece on the board.

7.Nf3 b5 8.Bd3 Nc6 Should also be a bit interesting. Perhaps white can find some more or less advantageous way to continue, though with the knight on c6 black has many ideas of how to continue play (Bg4, Bb7, e6, e5, b4, Nd7, g5) and this is usually a good sign.
After 8...Bb7 9.e5 Nd5 10.Nxd5 Bxd5 11.Qe3 Nc6 I suspect white is well placed to keep his center intact for some time, but ok maybe black can live with this.

7.Nf3 e6 8.e5 is definitely an idea and can maybe be compared to the 6...e6 7.e5 classical Pirc. Still I don't think you should be displeased as black after 8...dxe5 9.Nxe5 Nh5 10.Be3 Nd7. I'm not really thinking white is better and if he is it will be hard for him to make immediate impact against a fundamentally quite sound black position. A definite plus with 7...e6 is also that 8.Bd3 Nc6 seems quite alright for black.

There is also 7.Nf3 Nc6 which could be tried.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #85 - 06/02/17 at 13:03:49
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Quote:
I briefly had a look at this line, and thought 7 Be2-f3!? might be interesting ...

This struck a chord with me, because early this season I lost a horrible game to an opponent who used this plan! Here, though, maybe Black can go 7 ...Nc6 and not give White what he wants?
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #84 - 06/02/17 at 02:55:19
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I briefly had a look at this line, and thought 7 Be2-f3!? might be interesting, just trying to prevent Black from getting his ...b5/...Bb7/...Nbd7 set-up in.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bg5: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #83 - 06/01/17 at 23:56:23
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Quote:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 h6 6.Bf4 a6 7.Nf3!?
Looks most dangerous.

I had independently come to the same conclusion! I reckoned that, if White instead goes f2-f3, the position resembles the 4 Be3 a6!? line, in a form not disadvantageous to Black, who has the natural plan of ...b5/...Nbd7/...c5.

Quote:
I would probably just go 7...e6 and ask white what is up (at least not e5-e6!).

I haven't looked at this closely, but I was a bit worried about the immediate 8 e5. I thought Black's best might be 7 ...b5 as in Chernetskiy-Tkachiev. There, White replied 9 a3 (fishy, surely!) and after 8 ...Bb7 9 d5? c6 soon collapsed and came second. I imagined that best might be something like 8 Bd3 Bb7 9 e5 Nd5 10 Nd5 (10 e6 f5) Bd5 11 Qe3 Nc6!?. Maybe OK for Black? -- I'm not sure.
  
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