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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials (Read 3990 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #22 - 06/15/18 at 15:33:24
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Straggler wrote on 06/15/18 at 13:51:09:
ErictheRed wrote on 06/14/18 at 16:38:55:
I don't think of 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 as any kind of problem.  Black can still choose between many setups, can put his d-pawn on d6 or d5, fianchetto the king's bishop if he'd like, etc.  Besides 3...d5, Black has 3...g6 or even 3...Qc7!?, maintaining a lot of flexibility and denying White various setups. 

3...g6 is what I'd like to play, but Aveskulov isn't convinced that Black gets enough for the pawn after 4.dxc5. Likewise 3...d5 4.dxc5 (though Aveskulov doesn't mention this). The most popular alternative to 3...e6 seems to be 3...b6, which is recommended by Palliser in How to play against 1.d4 and by Ramirez on his Benko DVDs.


Try 3...Qc7!? which has been played by some strong GMs.
  
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #21 - 06/15/18 at 13:51:09
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/14/18 at 16:38:55:
I don't think of 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 as any kind of problem.  Black can still choose between many setups, can put his d-pawn on d6 or d5, fianchetto the king's bishop if he'd like, etc.  Besides 3...d5, Black has 3...g6 or even 3...Qc7!?, maintaining a lot of flexibility and denying White various setups. 

3...g6 is what I'd like to play, but Aveskulov isn't convinced that Black gets enough for the pawn after 4.dxc5. Likewise 3...d5 4.dxc5 (though Aveskulov doesn't mention this). The most popular alternative to 3...e6 seems to be 3...b6, which is recommended by Palliser in How to play against 1.d4 and by Ramirez on his Benko DVDs.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #20 - 06/15/18 at 01:09:18
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Lanark wrote on 06/14/18 at 23:16:46:
Yes, Christof Sielecki covers 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 b5 4.Bg5 Qb6 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 b5 4.c4 Bb7.
He also covers 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 Qc7, although not too deeply.
I have to admit I haven't worked very much with his Benko repertoire yet, so I cannot give a detailed review.

Thanks for the info. I will have to buy it eventually. If it holds up theoretically, this is a very convenient "Anti-Anti-Indian" even though I've taken a break from the Benko itself.

semper_fidelis wrote on 06/14/18 at 20:52:57:
And of course there is also 3...cd 4.cd d5 leading to completely toothless Exchange Slav, if you prefer to steer the game back to 'mainstream' theory Wink

True, it's possible. But it's a rare player who will offer the combative Benko, Benoni or Blumenfeld and then voluntarily go for the sedate Exchange Slav on the very next move. I'd rather follow the lines given by ErictheRed and Sielecki.
  

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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #19 - 06/14/18 at 23:16:46
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Stigma wrote on 06/14/18 at 01:58:58:
I like this approach, though 3.c3 is still a bit annoying. One way to keep it as indepependent of Benko or Benoni theory as possible after 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 b5, is meeting 4.Bg5 with 4...Ne4 or 4...Qb6, and 4.c4 with 4...Bb7. The latter is a theoretical Benko line, but avoids the potential transpositions to the Benko accepted or b6 main lines after 4...g6, as well as the craziness of 4...e6, the Blumenfeld Gambit.

P. S.: Does anyone know if IM Sielecki (ChessExplained) covers one or both of these in his Benko-based repertoire against 1.d4? I haven't bought it so far, but I might if he does.


Yes, Christof Sielecki covers 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 b5 4.Bg5 Qb6 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 b5 4.c4 Bb7.
He also covers 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 Qc7, although not too deeply.
I have to admit I haven't worked very much with his Benko repertoire yet, so I cannot give a detailed review.
  
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #18 - 06/14/18 at 20:52:57
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And of course there is also 3...cd 4.cd d5 leading to completely toothless Exchange Slav, if you prefer to steer the game back to 'mainstream' theory Wink
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #17 - 06/14/18 at 16:38:55
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I don't think of 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 as any kind of problem.  Black can still choose between many setups, can put his d-pawn on d6 or d5, fianchetto the king's bishop if he'd like, etc.  Besides 3...d5, Black has 3...g6 or even 3...Qc7!?, maintaining a lot of flexibility and denying White various setups.
  
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #16 - 06/14/18 at 16:13:56
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/14/18 at 15:52:31:
Regarding the combination of c2-c3 and ...c7-c5, I vaguely remember some trick like 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 b6?! 4.dxc5 bxc5 5.e4! leading to +/-.


I suppose you have to know your opponent. Many of those who adopt Torre, London or Colle ideas do so with the idea of avoiding critical theory and always using the same system of development. Not all of course, you cannot trust people who play 2. Bf4 to play a routine London as they might be intending a side swerve into a Pirc as in 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Qd2.

Pachman's book may well have some useful and mostly forgotten ideas for variation in the early moves.
  
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #15 - 06/14/18 at 15:52:31
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Pachman (1974) Indian Defences gave 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 b6:
  • 3.g3 Bb7 4.Bg2 (4.c4 e6 QID) 4...c5 leads to = (hedgehog)
  • 3.Bg5 Ne4 4.Bh4 leads to +=

It was a long time ago; 40 (sigh) years ago I purchased, 20 years ago I gave away this book. But I think he also gave 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 b6:
  • 3.c4 (best)
  • 3.Nbd2
  • 3.Nc3!?

Regarding the combination of c2-c3 and ...c7-c5, I vaguely remember some trick like 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 b6?! 4.dxc5 bxc5 5.e4! leading to +/-.
  
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #14 - 06/14/18 at 11:32:12
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Stigma wrote on 06/14/18 at 01:58:58:
I like this approach, though 3.c3 is still a bit annoying.


If you are happy with a line against the Torre, London or Colle that has .. c5 in it somewhere, it isn't a problem. One other point is that the move order avoids the sequence 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Nc3 and you have a dilemma that if you continue on Kings Indian lines with 3. .. d6 or 3. .. g6 you could get move-ordered into a Pirc by 4. e4 . Otherwise you have to play 3. .. d5 which again may be not something you play from choice.

Another idea is to play 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b6. If then they play 3. g3, you can play 3. .. g6 or continue into a Queens Indian. There's no pin, so 3. Bg5 could be met with 3. .. Ne4. Unlike the Tromp, f3 evicting the Knight isn't possible.

Possible middlegames would be a reverse Reti, a structure with Nf6, g6, Bg7, 0-0, d6, c5, b6, Bb7, Nbd7. As an alternative a Hedgehog with Nf6, e6, Be7, 0-0, d6, c5, b6, a6, Bb7, Nbd7.


  
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #13 - 06/14/18 at 01:58:58
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/07/18 at 16:47:30:
Lanark wrote on 06/07/18 at 13:31:48:
So, what is your favourite approach? Just going with the d-pawn stuff after 2...e6 or adding another major opening system to your Black repertoire?


I've posted it elsewhere in the forum, but back when I was a Nimzo player I just played 2.Nf3 c5.  I was tired of all the assorted, boring junk that I'd see against 2...e6 (Colle, London, Torre...) and eventually decided that I wanted to know right away whether White was going to play like a man with 3.d5! or some other, non-critical move.  I didn't really play the Benoni, so for the few times I actually faced 3.d5 (about 15% of my games), I played 3...b5. 


I like this approach, though 3.c3 is still a bit annoying. One way to keep it as indepependent of Benko or Benoni theory as possible after 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 b5, is meeting 4.Bg5 with 4...Ne4 or 4...Qb6, and 4.c4 with 4...Bb7. The latter is a theoretical Benko line, but avoids the potential transpositions to the Benko accepted or b6 main lines after 4...g6, as well as the craziness of 4...e6, the Blumenfeld Gambit.

Relevant sources for these specific lines are the Benko books by Sergey Kasparov (both 4.c4 Bb7 and 4.Bg5, though despite several pages covering it he actually recommends against 3.d5 b5 for Black), N.V. Pedersen (4.Bg5, meeting it with 4...Ne4), Tay (4.c4 Bb7) and Aveskulov (4.c4 Bb7).

P. S.: Does anyone know if IM Sielecki (ChessExplained) covers one or both of these in his Benko-based repertoire against 1.d4? I haven't bought it so far, but I might if he does.

P.P.S.: The Aveskulov book Attack with Black actually contains a full repertoire against Anti-Indians, including a good answer to the Trompowsky and two full chapters on the Blumenfeld Gambit.
  

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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #12 - 06/14/18 at 00:51:42
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Ntirlis: Playing 1.d4 d5
A Classical Repertoire

also looks interesting for a Queens-Indian player,
who wants to play solid lines against the d-pawn specials:

Fianchetto:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 b5!

Colle-Koltanowski
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.c3 Be7

Colle-Zukertort
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.b3 Be7

c3-Torre
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c3 e6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.Nd2 Nd7

London System
1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Nd2 Bd6 5.Bg3 0-0 6.Bd3 b6

All these lines are compatible with the move-order
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6

Only the Torre:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5
is not compatible with 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5
  
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #11 - 06/14/18 at 00:29:11
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If you are a Queens-Indian player and suspect a d-pawn special
you could play  1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 to get the most solid setup.

If your opponent surprises you with 3.c4
3...dxc4 4.e3  Bg4 (4.Nc3 a6) could be an interesting line.
(Semkov: Understanding the Queen's Gambit Accepted)
  
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #10 - 06/14/18 at 00:08:05
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The Alterman Gambit Guide
Black Gambits 1
chapter 4 (34 pages)

gives interesting hints to construct a combative repertoire against the d-pawn specials
if Black has played an early e6:

Trompovsky:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 e6 3.e4 c5!? 4.e5 (two illustrative games and some notes about 4.d5;
Alterman calls 3.e3 c5 and 3.Nd2 c5 consistent without giving any moves)

Blackmar-Diemer-Gambit
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e4 Nxe4!? (only a very short note,
btw Avrukh thinks this line is okay for White)

Veresov:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 c6!? (one very short game)

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 Alterman recommends 2...e6

Instead 2...c5 is risky:
According to Alterman
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 and
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 b5 4.Bg5 are
problematic for Black (no details).
Btw Queens-Indian player should not forget that
4.c4 is a Benko Declined.

Sedlak (Winning with the London System - Part 2)
has a whole chapter about 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5
from White's point of view. Sedlak is optimistic about White's chances. 

Colle
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 c5 4.Bd3 cxd4 5.exd4 Be7 (5...g6!?)   
(only some notes on one page)

London System
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 c5 4.e3 (4.c3 in the notes) cxd4 5.exd4 Qb6!?
(one illustrative game)

Torre
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 c5 4.e3 (4.c3) H6 5.Bh4 cxd4 6.exd4 Qb6!?
(only one page with notes; the 3.c3-move-order is not covered) 

With Alterman you get started very quickly but have to workout the details for yourself.
  
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #9 - 06/12/18 at 21:36:31
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Lanark wrote on 06/07/18 at 13:31:48:
I have a similar question for all Nimzo/Queen's Indian (or Bogo) players out there:

I believe most d-pawn specials (Colle, London, Torre) are most effective when Black has played e6.
Do you still play 2...e6 after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, hoping for 3.c4, or do you play a different second move, hoping White doesn't play 3.c4?

For example, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 I don't think the d-pawn specials give White much, but you have to be ready to play a Queen's Gambit after 3.c4.

I do what you describe here, but I already played a QGD against 1.d4 2.c4 with 3.Nf3. Against d-pawn specials, I like to play ...d5, sometimes with ...c5 and sometimes with a relatively early ...Bf5 or ...Bg4; in the latter case, I can even wind up in a Slav as Black, though that rarely happens.
« Last Edit: 06/13/18 at 20:27:45 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Nimzo Indian / Queen's Indian vs d-pawn specials
Reply #8 - 06/08/18 at 08:18:43
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Thanks for your answers.

hicetnunc wrote on 06/07/18 at 18:26:28:
Alternatively, you can mix it up with stuff such as 3.Bf4 Nh5 or 3.e3 g6!? or 3.Bg5 h6 4.Bh4 d6!? if you feel like it.

Yes, I think I saw something similar advocated by Nigel Davies on his DVD "1...e6: A Solid Repertoire against 1.d4 and 1.e4". Definitely interesting.

I am tempted to play 2...g6 or 2...d6, going for a King's Indian setup, because I like the fact that some systems like the 4PA, Sämisch, Averbakh are ruled out. I don't like to play against those, otherwise I would of course play the KID in the first place.  Roll Eyes
Still, I admit it's not a very practical choice to prepare for the whole Nimzo complex and additionally the King's Indian main line stuff with Nf3.
  
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