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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1 (Read 4042 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #15 - 11/16/17 at 19:25:17
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The recent book "Dismantling the Sicilian" also went for this line and concludes that white is better.
  
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TCH
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #14 - 11/10/16 at 18:28:38
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It looks like 15...f5 is busted.

15...Qc7 gives black a normal game however. Jones says that after 16.Bc5 Rfd8 17.g4 black is rather passive but after 17...h6 black should be able to get a comfortable game. That's how I see it.

Thanks for the heads up. It's a dangerous line.
  
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bearheart
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #13 - 10/20/16 at 12:58:00
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Dragan Glas, thank you for informing me how to download a pgn from the Forum posts.  Works beautifully!
  
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NegiRefutes
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #12 - 10/19/16 at 00:09:56
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Yes you are right. Instead of Ba3 White should go b3. Maybe it would be best if you play as Black against an engine to see.
  
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Dragan Glas
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #11 - 10/18/16 at 16:30:18
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Greetings,

bearheart wrote on 10/18/16 at 12:54:53:
How do I download a pgn file? Tried plain click, Ctrl-click, shift-click, alt-click, shft-ctrl-clk, etc.  All I get is a new page with text format and no way to save it, just "save as a page."  Help!

Save the text file with a .PGN extension.

You can then open it in a chess engine/software program.

Kindest regards,

James
  
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bearheart
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #10 - 10/18/16 at 12:54:53
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How do I download a pgn file? Tried plain click, Ctrl-click, shift-click, alt-click, shft-ctrl-clk, etc.  All I get is a new page with text format and no way to save it, just "save as a page."  Help!
  
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Dragan Glas
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #9 - 10/18/16 at 02:01:35
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Greetings,

Thanks, NegiRefutes, assuming a human player sees the a4/Ba3 resource over the board, Black has ..., Bf8, though White could play Bb3 - not sure what comes next as I'm just looking at the analysis above without my engine (Houdini).

Bearing in mind, I'm only suggesting this line as a means of giving Black some sort of counter-play/initiative, rather than sit there with nothing to do whilst White takes over the game.

I'd be interested to see if there's anything in this for Black.

Kindest regards,

James
  
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NegiRefutes
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #8 - 10/17/16 at 21:49:12
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The ...a5 idea will be met with a4 then if Black doubles on the b-file, White has Ba3. I can do a deeper analysis if this isn't convincing enough but the engine gives White an edge.
  
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Dragan Glas
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #7 - 10/17/16 at 14:45:15
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Greetings,

I was thinking that, rather than 15..., f5, why not play 15..., Qc7, protecting the a-pawn, and removing the queen off the d-file threatening ..., Nxe3 - instead of 15..., Qe7; 16 Bc5, Qb7; 17 Bb3, Rd8; when 18 Ne6 is awkward - 16 Bc5, Rfd8/c8 with the idea of ..., a5-a4 to oust the Bb3 should it move there following ..., Qb7.

Kindest regards,

James
  
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NegiRefutes
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #6 - 08/22/16 at 17:46:14
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Thanks everyone for your replies!

In the 14... Rb8 line, 19... Bxf8 or 21... Kh8 might be Black's best chance. after 19... Bxf8 Black is fully ready for an endgame where his pieces are optimally placed, so White goes 22. cxb3 and can put pressure on the c-file and the f-file with a small edge in my opinion. 21... Kh8 has been played in a correspondence game, White won in 45 moves. Here is some analysis on 21... Kh8
  
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #5 - 08/22/16 at 15:47:55
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Hi all!

First up I acquired both of Gawain's volumes on the Dragon and Negi's relevant book ( '1 e4 Vs The Sicilians II') at the recent British Championship and it is my intention to look at those on the site in the coming months.

Regards 'NegiRefutes' findings in this particular 9 0-0-0 d5 10 Qe1, I would like to thank him for his submission and hope he is rewarded for his work. I had started my August update but will complete it upon my return from holiday and up before the end of the month, it will now include something on this too.

My initial thoughts are indeed that White could indeed have an advantage in the endgame although with rooks on, two minor pieces for a rook is never straightforward. 'Confused_by_Theory' mentioned Charlie Storey and coincidentally at the British I was sat on the next board to:



Of course not a Dragon but initial thoughts of bystanders watching the endgame (certainly including myself at one point!) led many to believe that facing a passed a-pawn (and with rooks off!), Mark was dead lost. As can be seen, clearly not the case!

'PatzerNoster' correctly observes that Gawain doesn't mention 21 Qc3 in his book and nor does he give an alternative there (i.e. after 14 Kb1) to 14...Rb8.

My quick thoughts are that Black could try to preserve the queens either via 21...Kh8 in 'NegiRefutes' main line or deviate earlier with 19...Bxf8. In the case of the latter White would for example be unwise to try to reach the same type of endgame via 20 fxe4 Nf4 21 Qc3 Bxb3 22 Qxb3+?! (hence the mentioned 22 cxb3 but is then the likes of 22...Re8 23 g3 Nh5 24 Rhf1 Kg7 for example really that straightforward in practice? Objectively I guess White is better but with the queens on, the queenside pawn majority won't have a real impact for a while. ) Qxb3 23 cxb3 Nxg2 as the black rook and bishop are significantly better placed to deal with White's queenside pawns and create threats of his own.

My other observation from practical experience(and I'm sure I'm not the only one!) is that what the computer may have as a 'slight advantage' doesn't always remain that way when humans have to play such imbalanced scenarios over-the-board themselves!

Okay, thanks guys, I'll 'see' you all when I get back.

Best wishes

Chris

 
« Last Edit: 08/28/16 at 22:27:07 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #4 - 08/21/16 at 23:12:03
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Hello.

I only have Gawain Jones' The Dragon vol. I (on 9.Bc4). Logical reason being this is what I gradually switched over into playing after everyone started going (9...d5) against my (9.0-0-0). Must say though that your highlighted line looks quite nice, with play not being easy at all for black.

For what it is worth I can say that Charlie Storey in "the Sniper" (Everyman Chess 2011) gives a game with (12...cxd5) following the line given below until (18.Rxd5) and then basically writes off white's chances. Hard to believe white is not better in that heavy piece endgame though.

Have a nice day.

Edit: aesthetic edits minutes after posting.
  
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NegiRefutes
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #3 - 08/20/16 at 17:03:14
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Hi PatzerNoster

Thanks for your help!
There was a correspondence game with 21. Qc3 that White won, so I think this line might be busted for Black. I heard that Gawain shows two lines against 14. Kb1, do you happen to know what the other one is?

Thanks!
  
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #2 - 08/20/16 at 11:37:01
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This is only a sideline in his book, and 21.Qc3 is a new move. Gawain only discusses 21.g3 Bb3: 22.ab3: Ne6 with equality.

I think he is right, but after the queens exchange the Black position is much harder to play with the two minor pieces not coordinating well at all...
  
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NegiRefutes
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Re: Easy Edge for White in the Dragon 10. Qe1 14. Kb1
Reply #1 - 08/20/16 at 02:50:53
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I think I will have a chance to play this line maybe next week against 2100-2200 players. I would be interested to know what Gawain Jones recommends in his GM repertoire book if anyone has that.
  
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