Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Taking advantage of delayed c4 (Read 16944 times)
ham204
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 50
Joined: 09/15/09
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #21 - 12/10/19 at 08:53:10
Post Tools
I've been seeing a few games which are Catalan but without the c4 move. Would a Tartakover set-up work against such a system?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ReneDescartes
God Member
*****
Offline


Qu'est-ce donc que je
suis? Une chose qui pense.

Posts: 1240
Joined: 05/17/10
Gender: Male
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #20 - 04/25/18 at 10:27:27
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 04/11/18 at 06:50:07:

RdC wrote on 04/11/18 at 05:56:59:
In his book on playing e3 against everything, Axel Smith suggests a line of play running 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. e3 Bg7 4. c4 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 and now the tempo wasting 6. e4 claiming the resulting structure favourable to White.


Or 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. e3 O-O 5. Be2 d5 6. cd Nxd5 7. e4 Nb6 8. O-O (which has been played by e.g. Grischuk).  After 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 4.Bg2 cd 5. Nxd4 e5 6. Nb3, 6...Be7 7. 0-0 0-0 (which comes to the same thing) appears to be respectable.   


Then I foresee a new book by Adorjan, in the thoroughly modern spirit of Smith. Sequel to Black is Back!, it's White is Black!



« Last Edit: 04/25/18 at 14:02:32 by ReneDescartes »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4948
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #19 - 04/11/18 at 06:50:07
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/11/18 at 03:11:20:
In place of 6...h6, the ECO note continues 6...Nc6 7.O-O Be7 and follows Spiridonov - Radev, Decin 1975. Another difference of opinion: ECO 1976 (Cvetkovic/V.Sokolov) gives "unclear", ECO 1987 (same authors) gives "+=".


Pachman in Das Damengambit (1993) cited Spiridonov-Radev as +=, and gave instead 7...h6"!=".

RdC wrote on 04/11/18 at 05:56:59:
In his book on playing e3 against everything, Axel Smith suggests a line of play running 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. e3 Bg7 4. c4 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 and now the tempo wasting 6. e4 claiming the resulting structure favourable to White.


Or 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. e3 O-O 5. Be2 d5 6. cd Nxd5 7. e4 Nb6 8. O-O (which has been played by e.g. Grischuk).  After 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 4.Bg2 cd 5. Nxd4 e5 6. Nb3, 6...Be7 7. 0-0 0-0 (which comes to the same thing) appears to be respectable.  

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RdC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 868
Joined: 05/17/08
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #18 - 04/11/18 at 05:56:59
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/11/18 at 03:11:20:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 4.Bg2 cxd4. I am sure black is okay. But this is the type of opening that I would like to play with either color - unbalanced but not super-sharp.


It's going to depend on how you evaluate the positions where Black has pawns on e5 and d5 with White's Knight on b3.

In his book on playing e3 against everything, Axel Smith suggests a line of play running 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. e3 Bg7 4. c4 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 and now the tempo wasting 6. e4 claiming the resulting structure favourable to White. A key point is that a transposition to the Grunfeld is avoided by not playing Nc3 until ..Nxc3 isn't possible. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1723
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #17 - 04/11/18 at 03:11:20
Post Tools
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 4.Bg2 cxd4. I am sure black is okay. But this is the type of opening that I would like to play with either color - unbalanced but not super-sharp.

A difference of opinion concerning ...h6: 5.Nxd4 e5 6.Nb3 h6. In ECO 1987 they gave "+= Kurajica", whereas NCO 1999 gave "=". It's my view that ...h6 is a logical move, but it's too soon to be attaching any evaluation to the position.

In place of 6...h6, the ECO note continues 6...Nc6 7.O-O Be7 and follows Spiridonov - Radev, Decin 1975. Another difference of opinion: ECO 1976 (Cvetkovic/V.Sokolov) gives "unclear", ECO 1987 (same authors) gives "+=". But let us pause here after 7...Be7.
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

The above position should be compared with the Smyslov Variation of the QGA. Because of the tempo difference between ...c5xd4 and ...d5xc4, it actually happens that in the reversed variation white preserves his extra tempo. The following variation, although not pretending to be best play by either side, illustrates the tempo.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 g6 5.Bxc4 Bg7 6.Nc3 O-O 7.e4 Nfd7 8.Be2 Nb6.
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  

SpiridonovRadev1975.pgn ( 0 KB | 270 Downloads )
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4948
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #16 - 04/11/18 at 00:31:27
Post Tools
IsaVulpes wrote on 04/11/18 at 00:06:23:
I like the system of keeping the Nb8 at home to prevent a reversed Grünfeld. 
After castles, 5. ..Bd7 is a semi-useful waiting move, preparing Nc6 as you'd be able to recapture with the Bishop, and White doesn't appear to have anything better than 6.Nd4: e5 7.Knightsomewhere , when Black has the center and looks at least fine.


So a possibility is 5...Bd7 6. Nxd4 e5 7. Nb3 Be6, transposing to 4...e6 5. 0-0 cd 6. Nxd4 e5 7. Nb3 Be6 (ECO in 2004 had that as leading to equality), but there is also 7...Bc6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IsaVulpes
Senior Member
****
Offline


No.

Posts: 345
Joined: 12/09/07
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #15 - 04/11/18 at 00:06:23
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/09/18 at 19:54:10:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 is interesting. [..]. After 4.Bg2 would you play 4...cxd4, and then how to answer 5.O-O ... ?

I like the system of keeping the Nb8 at home to prevent a reversed Grünfeld. 
After castles, 5. ..Bd7 is a semi-useful waiting move, preparing Nc6 as you'd be able to recapture with the Bishop, and White doesn't appear to have anything better than 6.Nd4: e5 7.Knightsomewhere , when Black has the center and looks at least fine.

Gustafsson has a short video on this in Part4 of his Black repertoire series. I think he disliked 5. ..h6 for some reason, but for the life of me I can't remember why :/
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 842
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #14 - 04/10/18 at 21:38:28
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 04/10/18 at 16:25:50:
One reference for 5...h6:  it was given by Nunn in NCO (late '90s), with 6. b3 allegedly leading to an edge for White.


Thanks!

6b3 (Bb2 Bxd4) is another way for white to retrieve the pawn. In my games data base, it's under D02 with many continuations and no main line. Black scores equal in the small number of games.

My approach here as black is to avoid reverse Grunfeld exchange variation lines that proceed from ...Nc6 Nxd4 ...e5. So in that vein, I like the logic of 6b3 e3 7Bb2 Bc5.

Usmanov, V-Popov, Val 85th ch-St Petersburg 0-1 St Petersburg RUS Round 1 2012


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4948
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #13 - 04/10/18 at 16:25:50
Post Tools
FreeRepublic wrote on 04/10/18 at 15:52:22:
Your question gets to the heart of the matter. I suggest 5...h6!?

Black intends to answer 6Nxd4 with e5. White could play 6Bf4 instead. Then perhaps 6...e6 7Nxd4 Nbd7 threatening ...e5. Or 6...Nbd7 7Qxd4 e6, intending 8...Bc5.

By the way, 5...h6!? is not my idea, but I would have to do some research to give for proper attribution.


One reference for 5...h6:  it was given by Nunn in NCO (late '90s), with 6. b3 allegedly leading to an edge for White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 842
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #12 - 04/10/18 at 15:56:11
Post Tools
My first PGN post attempt follows. If it is garbled, please remove it.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 842
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #11 - 04/10/18 at 15:52:22
Post Tools
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/09/18 at 19:54:10:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 is interesting. ... black needs to be mindful of his next moves. ... After 4.Bg2 would you play 4...cxd4, and then how to answer 5.O-O ... ?


Your question gets to the heart of the matter. I suggest 5...h6!?

Black intends to answer 6Nxd4 with e5. White could play 6Bf4 instead. Then perhaps 6...e6 7Nxd4 Nbd7 threatening ...e5. Or 6...Nbd7 7Qxd4 e6, intending 8...Bc5.

By the way, 5...h6!? is not my idea, but I would have to do some research to give for proper attribution.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 842
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #10 - 04/10/18 at 15:39:17
Post Tools
Vachier Lagrave and Meier recently played a game ending in a draw in the Grenke Chess Classic. It began:
1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.O-O Be7 5.d4 b5
I found it at chess.com.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1723
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #9 - 04/09/18 at 19:54:10
Post Tools
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 is interesting. If black does not want to end up in a Classical Tarrasch, he needs to be mindful of his next moves. E.g., what does one do against the plan 4.Bg2, 5.O-O, 6.c4, 7.cxd5 ? ...d5xc4 is one option, but then it's a Catalan again. A Reversed Grunfeld is also lurking. After 4.Bg2 would you play 4...cxd4, and then how to answer 5.O-O ... ?

Of course, if black does want to end up in a Classical Tarrasch, then 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 is no problem at all.

I noticed Baburin playing 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 g6 and transposing into a Fianchetto Grunfeld. He made the comment that he played it so much as white, he was ready to play it as black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 842
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #8 - 04/09/18 at 15:34:41
Post Tools
Laramonet wrote on 08/25/16 at 15:35:47:
Playing the QGD and wanting to face the Catalan with a Bb4+ system, the move-order 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 annoys me


Me too!

I think I may have found the complete answer - 3...c5! Or perhaps I have deluded myself. Anyway, take a look and tell me what you think.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 842
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Taking advantage of delayed c4
Reply #7 - 03/06/18 at 19:28:38
Post Tools
White can start with 1Nf3 and transpose to a Catalan, often with a delayed c4. White, as your argued, may move-order black out of his favorite reply to the Catalan. Here is an extremely rare line that may still be OK for black:

1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 Nc6!? (intending a reversed Pirc) 3. d4 (Catalan) e6 4. Bg2 Bd6!? 5. c4 Nf6 6. O-O O-O. Black contemplates dxc and e5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo