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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Apocalypse attack (Read 2533 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #12 - 10/12/16 at 17:54:03
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Mark L wrote on 10/11/16 at 22:37:56:
I'm not sure that 6. Bb5 is White's best choice against the early Nc6. Playing c3 and Bd3 like an Exchange variation seems better to me.

1. e4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. Ne5 Nc6 5. d4 Nf6 6. c3 e6 7. Bd3 Bd6 8. f4 O-O 9. Qc2

Using this as a surprise weapon against an opponent not familiar with it does have its benefits. As with any opening, I would always be looking for different ways to approach Black's better defenses.  Cool


Black could just play 7...Nxe5 8.de Nd7, which offhand looks immediately equal to me.  As an old French and Sicilian player I'd rather take Black, though.  Black doesn't have to castle so early, he could play moves like 8...Ne7 or 8...Qc7, for instance.  Also your main line doesn't look worse for Black to me. 

But okay, it's a game of chess.
  
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Mark L
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #11 - 10/11/16 at 22:37:56
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I'm not sure that 6. Bb5 is White's best choice against the early Nc6. Playing c3 and Bd3 like an Exchange variation seems better to me.

1. e4 c6 2. Nf3 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 4. Ne5 Nc6 5. d4 Nf6 6. c3 e6 7. Bd3 Bd6 8. f4 O-O 9. Qc2

Using this as a surprise weapon against an opponent not familiar with it does have its benefits. As with any opening, I would always be looking for different ways to approach Black's better defenses.  Cool
  
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Jupp53
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #10 - 10/09/16 at 09:30:50
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Let's have a look at concrete lines. This should be equal after 10 or 11 moves and if white doesn't find anything better there is a surprise value in this line. Nothing more, nothing less.
  

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Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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kylemeister
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #9 - 10/09/16 at 09:05:03
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ErictheRed wrote on 10/09/16 at 02:17:15:
Having a knight on e5 so early isn't all sun and roses, there are a lot of lines where Black gains time by inviting that knight forward and then exchanging it off.


I'll throw in that that reminds me of a quote from the era of Tal-Larsen (think half a century ago, kids) re 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 de -- something like "this has been considered a mistake since it invites the knight to take up a central position, but [...]." 
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #8 - 10/09/16 at 02:17:15
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That article on the Kenilworth's website is high on hyperbole and short of analysis.  Just some random games. 

This 4.Ne5 Nf6 5.d4 e6 6.c4? stuff is just ridiculous, Black must be better if anyone after 6...Nc6 there.  Why are so many games in Goeller's article playing the passive ...Nbd7?  Also there are a lot of examples of ...Qb6?! being a poor way of protecting c6 instead of just ...Bd7.

I mean 4.Ne5 is a move, I'm sure that White is OK after it, but it's no try for advantage.  I guess White can just play 6.c3 or 6.Nd2 and be equalish, but it's nothing to write home about. 

It just looks like junk to me, I dunno.  Having a knight on e5 so early isn't all sun and roses, there are a lot of lines where Black gains time by inviting that knight forward and then exchanging it off.  Fun name though.
  
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Mark L
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #7 - 10/09/16 at 01:50:38
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RdC wrote on 10/07/16 at 09:43:07:
I found over 700 examples of the position after 4.Ne5 in a big database. I don't think any top 100 players have ever tried it, nor has anyone written an article advocating it. It's variations that aren't played in practice like the Bronstein queen sacrifice in the Kings Indian Samisch that get all the attention.

Morozevich did try it in 2005 vs. Bareev in the Amber blindfold tourney and won in 49 moves. Probably did so just to get Bareev out of memorized positions.


RdC wrote on 10/07/16 at 09:43:07:
I would have thought 4. .. e6 a mistake, but the engines consider it just as equal as all other ideas.

Bareev did play 4...e6 but was the only one to do so in Goeller's article. Nf6 and Nc6 are more common.


RdC wrote on 10/07/16 at 09:43:07:
In the game, Black got himself into trouble by taking the pawn on c3 without castling and then compounded his problems by snatching the one on e5 as well. The position reminded me of the Panov variation once White had played d4 and c4. Playing Ne5 early would have had the advantage of avoiding .. Bg4 lines

Goeller does mention similarities with the Panov and how Ne5 stops the Bg4 pin.

When I was able to play 13. Ba3 I had a pretty good feeling about the position  Smiley
  
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Mark L
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #6 - 10/08/16 at 05:57:41
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The link Bibs posted from the Kenilworth Chess Club is well worth the read and I believe was the original material I had run across. There's also a 30 game pgn with Michael Goeller's analysis.

An excerpt: "Meanwhile, when playing the traditional exchange line, White also has his eyes set on getting his Knight to e5 as soon as possible, and in several games with the line (see especially Fischer-Petrosian and Browne-Larsen) the achievement of Ne5 signals White's domination of the position. What could be more logical, therefore, than to play for a speedy Ne5 advance, which accomplishes all of the typical short-term goals in the Exchange: discouraging Black from developing the light-squared Bishop (in part due to the threat of Bb5+), preventing the Bg4 pin, and securing the e5 square all before Black has even moved a piece"
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #5 - 10/07/16 at 19:43:53
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4.Ne5, wheeee....

I'd probably rather have Black after the simple 6...Nc6 in that game, is there any real idea behind this?  Or is it just an excuse to give something a fun name?
  
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Bibs
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #4 - 10/07/16 at 13:37:34
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It seems that the move did not name itself. It's amazing what search engines can do. Decent article here by one of our forumites:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/articles/opening/apocalypse/apocalypse.htm
  
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RdC
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #3 - 10/07/16 at 09:43:07
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Mark L wrote on 10/07/16 at 05:11:02:
I began to investigate this unique way of playing against the Caro-Kann defense a few months ago.



I found over 700 examples of the position after 4.Ne5 in a big database. I don't think any top 100 players have ever tried it, nor has anyone written an article advocating it. It's variations that aren't played in practice like the Bronstein queen sacrifice in the Kings Indian Samisch that get all the attention.

I would have thought 4. .. e6 a mistake, but the engines consider it just as equal as all other ideas.

In the game, Black got himself into trouble by taking the pawn on c3 without castling and then compounded his problems by snatching the one on e5 as well. The position reminded me of the Panov variation once White had played d4 and c4. Playing Ne5 early would have had the advantage of avoiding .. Bg4 lines
  
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Mark L
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #2 - 10/07/16 at 05:11:02
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This is not a professional game. I was White and typically carry a rating a bit under 1950. My opponent was around 1820.

I began to investigate this unique way of playing against the Caro-Kann defense a few months ago. There was nothing mentioned in ChessPub forums when I looked, so I decided to add the variation for people to see.

Bibs wrote on 10/06/16 at 10:34:27:
Hi
It is usual to state who the players are. Ratings too if you have.
Who?

  
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Bibs
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Re: Apocalypse attack
Reply #1 - 10/06/16 at 10:34:27
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Hi
It is usual to state who the players are. Ratings too if you have.
Who?
  
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Mark L
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Apocalypse attack
09/21/16 at 22:54:09
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