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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Repertoire books vs Pirc (Read 2633 times)
Straggler
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #38 - 09/29/16 at 09:52:57
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kylemeister wrote on 09/28/16 at 23:12:17:
Straggler wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:22:03:
For that purpose, 3.f3 is better still!


Not sure what you mean ...3. f3 has the idea of leaving the c-pawn unblocked; I recall Kasparov playing it ...


I know, which is why (as I said earlier) Schandorff recommends it. But it tends to puzzle club players who have never seen anything but 3.Nc3.
  
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JEH
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #37 - 09/29/16 at 03:17:22
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kylemeister wrote on 09/28/16 at 23:12:17:
Straggler wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:22:03:
For that purpose, 3.f3 is better still!


Not sure what you mean ...3. f3 has the idea of leaving the c-pawn unblocked; I recall Kasparov playing it ...



It's what Anand played against me. 3. f3 is the move to beat patzers  Grin
  

"Football is like Chess, only without the dice."

"Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations."
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MNb
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #36 - 09/29/16 at 00:10:38
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RdC wrote on 09/28/16 at 23:22:11:
I think it worked for Haygarth against Mestel in a critical last round game in the 1974 British at Clacton. The then opinion of the "experts" was that the plan with f3 and Be3 wasn't particularly good.


IIrc Bagirov had written a book on the Pirc in the 1970's; he opined - and that was the consensus - that Black should not castle and then was more than OK.



Haygarth,M (2200) - Mestel,A (2270) [B07]
BCFch Clacton on Sea (11), 16.08.1974



1-0

Due to this loss Mestel had to share first price.

I'd prefer 6.Qc1. The queen is clumsy there, but so is Qb6.
  

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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #35 - 09/28/16 at 23:22:11
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JEH wrote on 09/28/16 at 15:38:29:
[quote author=1A1935570 link=1474639249/29#29 date=1475064920]
So the advantage of 4. f3 is that it might trick your opponent into thinking you are a patzer 


I think it worked for Haygarth against Mestel in a critical last round game in the 1974 British at Clacton. The then opinion of the "experts" was that the plan with f3 and Be3 wasn't particularly good.

That the 150 attack with Nf3 works underpins one of my repertoires. So start with 1. Nf3 g6, what do you do next? If you continue with 2. g3 to build "the King's House", they have 2. .. Bg7 and if 3. Bg2, then 3. .. e5 and you are in some danger of reversing the colours.

You can play e4 and d4, but following up with a 150 with Nf3 avoids the potentially passive nature of the Be2 Classical.
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #34 - 09/28/16 at 23:12:17
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Straggler wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:22:03:
For that purpose, 3.f3 is better still!


Not sure what you mean ...3. f3 has the idea of leaving the c-pawn unblocked; I recall Kasparov playing it ...
  
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Straggler
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #33 - 09/28/16 at 22:22:03
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JEH wrote on 09/28/16 at 15:38:29:
So the advantage of 4. f3 is that it might trick your opponent into thinking you are a patzer  Grin

For that purpose, 3.f3 is better still!
  
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MNb
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #32 - 09/28/16 at 16:34:05
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Bibs wrote on 09/28/16 at 15:01:10:
Hi MnB. I remember some discussion of the van Delft repertoire at some point prior. Sounded interesting, but I could never find it anywhere. Where is/was that btw? Thanks!

Sorry, can't remember. Maybe it was about the Petrov? A couple of weeks after Van Delft had recommended 5.Nc3 he won a crushing game as Black in this variation.

JEH wrote on 09/28/16 at 15:38:29:
it might trick your opponent into thinking you are a patzer  Grin

That would be quite accurate  Cheesy
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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JEH
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #31 - 09/28/16 at 15:38:29
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MNb wrote on 09/28/16 at 13:15:20:
So for OTB purposes I'm contemplating going back to 4.f3 again.


4. f3 was recommended in both the juniors rep books, even Moret's 2016 one.

So the advantage of 4. f3 is that it might trick your opponent into thinking you are a patzer  Grin
  

"Football is like Chess, only without the dice."

"Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations."
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #30 - 09/28/16 at 15:01:10
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Hi MnB. I remember some discussion of the van Delft repertoire at some point prior. Sounded interesting, but I could never find it anywhere. Where is/was that btw? Thanks!
  
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MNb
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #29 - 09/28/16 at 13:15:20
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RdC wrote on 09/28/16 at 10:39:02:
Later it was realised that you could just move the Bishop and provoking h6 and g5 was likely to be in White's favour.

That's correct. Like I already wrote in the 1980's I started with 4.f3. This way to play the Argentinean Attack received a heavy blow with the game Yudasin-Zaichik, Kostroma 1985. I remember looking at the move order 4.Be3 after I saw it and feeling uncomfortable with ...Ng4. Only when a NIC Yearbook demonstrated White's chances after 4.Be3 Ng4 and 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 Ng4 I switched. The second point is that 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 O-O 6.O-O-O prevents both ...c5 and ...e5.

But the development of chess theory can be full of irony. White scores very well after 4.f3 Bg7 5.Be3 O-O 6.Qd2 e5 while the 150-Attack seems to be defused. And 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 c5 enables Black to limit White's advantage to a minute endgame edge. A couple of years ago Merijn van Delft recommended the positional 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.h3 but it seems to me that Black is very solid after Nbd7 (not O-O?! 7.g4!) 7.Bd3 Qc7 8.Nf3 O-O.

So for OTB purposes I'm contemplating going back to 4.f3 again.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #28 - 09/28/16 at 12:04:08
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There is also to the war of information, as 4. f3, 4. f4 and 4. Nf3 give away something about White's intentions, but 4. Be3 and 4. Bg5 retain options whilst Black is trying to hold off from various moves to see how to react.
  

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"Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations."
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #27 - 09/28/16 at 10:39:02
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MNb wrote on 09/27/16 at 01:45:54:
The 150-Attack replaces f3 with Nf3 and Bd3.


Back in the early 1970s, when I learnt the Pirc and Modern from the Keene/Botterill books, magazine articles and the practical play of my contemporaries, there was a belief that if you placed the Bishop on e3, then you needed to protect it from attack by .. Ng4 either by f3 or h3. There was more reverence for the "law"  about not moving pieces twice in the opening despite the evidence from mainstream systems,so there was reluctance to consider Bg5. Later it was realised that you could just move the Bishop and provoking h6 and g5 was likely to be in White's favour.

That said, Larsen used the move order 1. Nf3 g6 2. e4 Bg7 3. d4 d6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Be3 O-O 6. Qd2 against Penrose in 1967. Penrose responded with 6. .. e5 7. dxe5 dxe5 8. Qd2 Qe7 reaching a position similar to that which Larsen was playing against the Kings Indian at the time.

If you search for the position after move 5. Be3  from Larsen-Penrose, you find over 3000 games. It gains popularity from about 1989 onwards, with the names of Hebden, Emms, Gallagher etc being prominent amongst the pioneers.
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #26 - 09/27/16 at 13:19:47
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MNb wrote on 09/27/16 at 01:45:54:
Yours truly suggested it to him for the reason I mentioned above.


Ahah! I thought I read it on this forum  Cool

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1158115943
  

"Football is like Chess, only without the dice."

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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #25 - 09/27/16 at 03:19:30
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I have decided to follow Pircquest in the order of frequency that I face the opening groups myself, which means starting with the Classical.

I am adding "Die Pirc Die!" by Dzindzichashvili,  Colin McNab's chapter from Dangerous Weapons on the "Neglected approach" and Bojkov's 60 minute video to my list.

I will go Karpov->Accelerated->150/Hebden
  

"Football is like Chess, only without the dice."

"Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations."
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #24 - 09/27/16 at 01:45:54
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JEH wrote on 09/26/16 at 12:49:46:
This is what might be referred to as the 150, but I prefer its newer adopted named of the Argentine.

To nitpick a bit: in general lines with Be3 and f3 are the Argentinean Attack; it was played by Argentinean players even before the Pirc received its name.
The 150-Attack replaces f3 with Nf3 and Bd3.
There are also some variations in between like 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6.


Quote:
Very dangerous and very interesting!

Certainly. And combining the two or three (playing 4.Be3 and 5.Qd2 and see first what Black does) is even more dangerous!

Bibs wrote on 09/26/16 at 13:26:51:
One more thing, James (Vigus) called the f3 system the Argentine(an), iirc. His suggested nomenclature. Not sure of that name meself.

Yours truly suggested it to him for the reason I mentioned above. The variation starting with 4.f3 never received a proper name.

Bibs wrote on 09/26/16 at 13:26:51:
Possible, but doesn't happen.

At least yours truly started playing 4.f3 and around 1990 switched to 4.Be3 evt. later 6.f3. GM Westerinen made it happen in 1972 and Sveshnikov in 1983.
The reason for me is exactly that for instance 4.f3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 b5 tends to produce a rather positional game.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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