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picasso911
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #39 - 06/20/17 at 10:30:56
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JEH wrote on 09/26/16 at 12:49:46:
Thanks for all your replies. I'd missed quite a lot of the d4 repertoire books, but I think I've got a good list now. I spent the weekend organising my material and having a look through bits of it.

I've changed my plan for going through it. Originally it was going to be purely chronological, but now I think I will go through the following opening groups in chronological order:

1. Austrian    4. f4
2. Argentine  4. f3 or 4. Be3 with a later f3
3. Classical    4. Nf3
4. Byrne        4. Bg5
5. Others

There are some transpositions, but eventually the split is like this. Note I'm not calling anything the 150 Attack. I think now this is really a plan, rather than an opening, the plan being to attack a Black castled king with h4-h5, but it can be combined various set ups with e.g. f3 or Nf3 or Be3 or Bg5.

Austrian
Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep
1976,Batsford,Barden/Harding,Batsford Guide to Chess Openings,4. f4 e5
1979,Chess Player,Baker,2nd Line for White,4. f4 e5
1996,Cadogan,Gufeld,Attacking,4. f4 0-0 Be3/c5 Bb5
1998,Batsford,Baker,Startling,4. f4 0-0 Be3/c5 Bb5
2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. f4 e5
2005,Everyman,Davies,Gambiteer,4. f4 a3
2005,Chess Stars,Khalifman,According to Anand,4. f4 0-0 Bd3/c5 Bb5+Bxd7
2005,New In Chess,Lalic/Okhotnik,Carpathian Warrior,4. f4 various
2011,Everyman,Greet,Beating Unusual,4. f4 0-0 Be3/c5 dxc+Qd4
2014,Mongoose,Tamburro,For Amateurs,4. f4 e5

I was a little surprised this came out on top. I rarely get the Austrian, and only from stronger players. However a popular recommendation is with an early e5 push. I'd never considered this as a wise choice, as it's Black that gets the choice of tactical chaos or an equal ending.

Argentine
Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep
1975,Oxford University Press,Walker,Chess Openings For Juniors,4. f3 Be3
1997,Batsford,Burgess/Pedersen,Beating the Indian Defences,4. Be3 f3
2001,Everyman,Emms,Attacking,4. Be3 f3
2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. f3 Be3
2004,McKay,Kaufman,Advantage,4. Be3 f3
2006,Everyman,McDonald,Starting Out 1.e4,4. Be3 f3
2012,New in Chess,Kaufman,Repertoire in Black and White,4. Be3 f3
2013,Chess Stars,Kornev,Practical White 2,4. Be3 f3
2016,New In Chess,Moret,First,4. f3 Be3

This is what might be referred to as the 150, but I prefer its newer adopted named of the Argentine. Very dangerous and very interesting!

The old juniors book only has 1 line with 9 moves and a tiny sub line, but after that there seems to have been a late surge in recommendations, even from d4 books!

Classical
Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep
1979,Batsford,Cafferty,Chess Opening For You,4. Nf3 Be2
1983,Pergamon,Mendis,From the Opening Into the Endgame,4. Nf3 Be2
1998,Everyman,Summerscale,Killer,4. Nf3 Be3
2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. Nf3 Be2
2004,Everyman,Davies,Dynamic Reti,4. Nf3 Be3+h3
2008,Everyman,Palliser,D-pawn attacks,4. Nf3 Be3
2009,Norton,Dzindzichashvili,White Explained,4. Nf3 Be3+h3
2010,Gambit,Summerscale/Johnson,Killer Enlarged,4. Nf3 Be3

I call lines where White plants Nf3 classical, although it can arrive there at different points,e.g. 2. Nf3 for those d-pawn specials.

There are three approaches which I'm calling:

1. The Karpov        5. Be2
2. The Accelerated Be3/h3
3. The Hebden       Be3/Qd2

On Marin's DVD, he meets 1 and 2 with a c6 set up, but meets 3 with an a6 set up, so it might need different treatment. 

Byrne
Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep
1976,Batsford,Barden/Harding,Batsford Guide to Chess Openings,4. Bg5
1984,Batsford,Keene/Levy,For the Attacking Player,4. Bg5
2003,Trafford,Acers/Laven,Guiding Repertoire for White,4. Bg5
2004,Batsford,Collins,Attacking,4. Bg5
2011,Everyman,Lakdawala,Ferocious,4. Bg5
2016,Quality,Shaw,Playing e4,4. Bg5

Dangerous and causing many a Pirc player to scurry off to a Modern move order.

Others
Year,Publisher,Author,Title,Rep
1986,Chess Digest,Soltis,1. e4,3. Bd3
1994,World of Chess,Barlov/Jovicic,White is Better - 1.e2-e4,3. Bd3
2016,Gambit,Collins,Simple,3. Bd3
1996,Cadogan,Gufeld,Positional,3. f3
2012,Quality,Schandorff,Playing 1.d4 - The Indian Defences,3. f3
1980,Chess Player,Thomas,Line for White,4. Bc4
1998,Cardoza,Schiller,Gambit,4. Bc4
1993,Chess Digest,Soltis,Beating the Pirc,4. g3
2009,Chess Information,Chernin/Alburt,Pirc Alert!,4. g3
1992,Chess Digest,Schiller,Winning with 1. e4,Grand Prix
2005,New In Chess,Lalic/Okhotnik,Carpathian Warrior,Spike
2009,Everyman,Palliser,Dangerous Weapons,4. Be3 g4

I've had all sorts of stuff thrown at me over the years. This is a decent summary. g3 has been used by the strong players. Going for an anti-Sicilian is more popular than this list might indicate, especially since so many books offer the Grand Prix as their anti-Sicilian choice.


Thanks for that helpful compilation!  Cool
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #38 - 09/29/16 at 09:52:57
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kylemeister wrote on 09/28/16 at 23:12:17:
Straggler wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:22:03:
For that purpose, 3.f3 is better still!


Not sure what you mean ...3. f3 has the idea of leaving the c-pawn unblocked; I recall Kasparov playing it ...


I know, which is why (as I said earlier) Schandorff recommends it. But it tends to puzzle club players who have never seen anything but 3.Nc3.
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #37 - 09/29/16 at 03:17:22
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kylemeister wrote on 09/28/16 at 23:12:17:
Straggler wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:22:03:
For that purpose, 3.f3 is better still!


Not sure what you mean ...3. f3 has the idea of leaving the c-pawn unblocked; I recall Kasparov playing it ...



It's what Anand played against me. 3. f3 is the move to beat patzers  Grin
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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MNb
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #36 - 09/29/16 at 00:10:38
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RdC wrote on 09/28/16 at 23:22:11:
I think it worked for Haygarth against Mestel in a critical last round game in the 1974 British at Clacton. The then opinion of the "experts" was that the plan with f3 and Be3 wasn't particularly good.


IIrc Bagirov had written a book on the Pirc in the 1970's; he opined - and that was the consensus - that Black should not castle and then was more than OK.



Haygarth,M (2200) - Mestel,A (2270) [B07]
BCFch Clacton on Sea (11), 16.08.1974



1-0

Due to this loss Mestel had to share first price.

I'd prefer 6.Qc1. The queen is clumsy there, but so is Qb6.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #35 - 09/28/16 at 23:22:11
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JEH wrote on 09/28/16 at 15:38:29:
[quote author=1A1935570 link=1474639249/29#29 date=1475064920]
So the advantage of 4. f3 is that it might trick your opponent into thinking you are a patzer 


I think it worked for Haygarth against Mestel in a critical last round game in the 1974 British at Clacton. The then opinion of the "experts" was that the plan with f3 and Be3 wasn't particularly good.

That the 150 attack with Nf3 works underpins one of my repertoires. So start with 1. Nf3 g6, what do you do next? If you continue with 2. g3 to build "the King's House", they have 2. .. Bg7 and if 3. Bg2, then 3. .. e5 and you are in some danger of reversing the colours.

You can play e4 and d4, but following up with a 150 with Nf3 avoids the potentially passive nature of the Be2 Classical.
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #34 - 09/28/16 at 23:12:17
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Straggler wrote on 09/28/16 at 22:22:03:
For that purpose, 3.f3 is better still!


Not sure what you mean ...3. f3 has the idea of leaving the c-pawn unblocked; I recall Kasparov playing it ...
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #33 - 09/28/16 at 22:22:03
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JEH wrote on 09/28/16 at 15:38:29:
So the advantage of 4. f3 is that it might trick your opponent into thinking you are a patzer  Grin

For that purpose, 3.f3 is better still!
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #32 - 09/28/16 at 16:34:05
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Bibs wrote on 09/28/16 at 15:01:10:
Hi MnB. I remember some discussion of the van Delft repertoire at some point prior. Sounded interesting, but I could never find it anywhere. Where is/was that btw? Thanks!

Sorry, can't remember. Maybe it was about the Petrov? A couple of weeks after Van Delft had recommended 5.Nc3 he won a crushing game as Black in this variation.

JEH wrote on 09/28/16 at 15:38:29:
it might trick your opponent into thinking you are a patzer  Grin

That would be quite accurate  Cheesy
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #31 - 09/28/16 at 15:38:29
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MNb wrote on 09/28/16 at 13:15:20:
So for OTB purposes I'm contemplating going back to 4.f3 again.


4. f3 was recommended in both the juniors rep books, even Moret's 2016 one.

So the advantage of 4. f3 is that it might trick your opponent into thinking you are a patzer  Grin
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #30 - 09/28/16 at 15:01:10
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Hi MnB. I remember some discussion of the van Delft repertoire at some point prior. Sounded interesting, but I could never find it anywhere. Where is/was that btw? Thanks!
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #29 - 09/28/16 at 13:15:20
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RdC wrote on 09/28/16 at 10:39:02:
Later it was realised that you could just move the Bishop and provoking h6 and g5 was likely to be in White's favour.

That's correct. Like I already wrote in the 1980's I started with 4.f3. This way to play the Argentinean Attack received a heavy blow with the game Yudasin-Zaichik, Kostroma 1985. I remember looking at the move order 4.Be3 after I saw it and feeling uncomfortable with ...Ng4. Only when a NIC Yearbook demonstrated White's chances after 4.Be3 Ng4 and 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 Ng4 I switched. The second point is that 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 O-O 6.O-O-O prevents both ...c5 and ...e5.

But the development of chess theory can be full of irony. White scores very well after 4.f3 Bg7 5.Be3 O-O 6.Qd2 e5 while the 150-Attack seems to be defused. And 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 8.Bd3 c5 enables Black to limit White's advantage to a minute endgame edge. A couple of years ago Merijn van Delft recommended the positional 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.h3 but it seems to me that Black is very solid after Nbd7 (not O-O?! 7.g4!) 7.Bd3 Qc7 8.Nf3 O-O.

So for OTB purposes I'm contemplating going back to 4.f3 again.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #28 - 09/28/16 at 12:04:08
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There is also to the war of information, as 4. f3, 4. f4 and 4. Nf3 give away something about White's intentions, but 4. Be3 and 4. Bg5 retain options whilst Black is trying to hold off from various moves to see how to react.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #27 - 09/28/16 at 10:39:02
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MNb wrote on 09/27/16 at 01:45:54:
The 150-Attack replaces f3 with Nf3 and Bd3.


Back in the early 1970s, when I learnt the Pirc and Modern from the Keene/Botterill books, magazine articles and the practical play of my contemporaries, there was a belief that if you placed the Bishop on e3, then you needed to protect it from attack by .. Ng4 either by f3 or h3. There was more reverence for the "law"  about not moving pieces twice in the opening despite the evidence from mainstream systems,so there was reluctance to consider Bg5. Later it was realised that you could just move the Bishop and provoking h6 and g5 was likely to be in White's favour.

That said, Larsen used the move order 1. Nf3 g6 2. e4 Bg7 3. d4 d6 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. Be3 O-O 6. Qd2 against Penrose in 1967. Penrose responded with 6. .. e5 7. dxe5 dxe5 8. Qd2 Qe7 reaching a position similar to that which Larsen was playing against the Kings Indian at the time.

If you search for the position after move 5. Be3  from Larsen-Penrose, you find over 3000 games. It gains popularity from about 1989 onwards, with the names of Hebden, Emms, Gallagher etc being prominent amongst the pioneers.
  
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #26 - 09/27/16 at 13:19:47
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MNb wrote on 09/27/16 at 01:45:54:
Yours truly suggested it to him for the reason I mentioned above.


Ahah! I thought I read it on this forum  Cool

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1158115943
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Repertoire books vs Pirc
Reply #25 - 09/27/16 at 03:19:30
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I have decided to follow Pircquest in the order of frequency that I face the opening groups myself, which means starting with the Classical.

I am adding "Die Pirc Die!" by Dzindzichashvili,  Colin McNab's chapter from Dangerous Weapons on the "Neglected approach" and Bojkov's 60 minute video to my list.

I will go Karpov->Accelerated->150/Hebden
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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