Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7 (Read 1850 times)
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4245
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
Reply #10 - 10/21/16 at 05:47:53
Post Tools
Note that the latest 1. d4 d5 update is relevant to this thread (and to another recent one I recall).

The idea that Black can equalize(/equalise) in the Exchange with ye olde "straight development" (a phrase I recall from R. Fine) incl. ..Re8 and ...Nf8 -- blasphemy!   Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1310
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
Reply #9 - 10/04/16 at 21:37:54
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 10/04/16 at 18:59:25:
But 4. cd goes way back as a major option against 3...Be7 -- think Kasparov-Karpov and Botvinnik-Petrosian.


Korchnoi-Karpov too.  But, forgive me, I wasn't trying to suggest that the variation wasn't known or played at the highest levels, just that it didn't seem to get played as regularly back then as it seems to be today.  At least, IIRC, it wasn't as hard for me to keep up with the theory back then.  Botvinnik played it, but then what?  I can't recall much happening after the Botvinnik-Petrosian match, probably until at least the 1980s.  Just looking at MegaBase to confirm my suspicions, I found only about 60 or 70 games with 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bf4 c6 between 1960 and 1980, while there's probably 10x that many games with 4.Nf3 in the same period.  Your point is a fair one.  It does seem odd to say that a variation that was prominent in multiple World Championships wasn't a major option.  But, even so, it still feels like 4.cxd5 is played a lot more often today. 


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Laramonet
Full Member
***
Offline


Gwyddbwll am byth !

Posts: 230
Joined: 03/16/07
Re: QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
Reply #8 - 10/04/16 at 20:42:52
Post Tools
Only after reading LeeRoth's first contribution did I realise that the 3...., Be7 move-order effects the choice against the Catalan ! Amazing what you can miss.
However, would the line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.g3 dc 6.Bg2 Nc6 7.0-0 0-0 nearly bring us back to a 4....., Bb4+ line, not considered very promising for White ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4245
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
Reply #7 - 10/04/16 at 18:59:25
Post Tools
But 4. cd goes way back as a major option against 3...Be7 -- think Kasparov-Karpov and Botvinnik-Petrosian.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1310
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
Reply #6 - 10/04/16 at 18:48:16
Post Tools
In answer to that last bit, I'm pretty sure that GM Williams didn't mean to say that 3..Be7 literally "forces" 4.Nf3.  He probably meant to say that 3..Be7 induces or encourages 4.Nf3, which is, after all, the reason behind 3..Be7 and was more or less the conventional wisdom for a time.  These days, it might not be as true as it once was, since 4.cxd5 has become a major option to 4.Nf3.

For years, I played 3..Be7, with the idea of avoiding the Nge2 Exchange.  Today, I switch off between 3..Be7 and 3..Nf6, as I am just as happy or unhappy to face the Exchange after either move.  Theoretically, I don't think one move is any better than the other, so for me its mostly a matter of mood, how I'm feeling, etc.

If you are trying to decide which to play, I would suggest trying both and picking the one that you like better or that makes more sense to you, regardless of how many GMs play it or the evaluation that your engine gives it (within reason, of course).  Better to know what to do in a position, than to be theoretically better/equal and have no idea.         

         
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4245
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
Reply #5 - 10/04/16 at 17:29:05
Post Tools
zytsang wrote on 10/04/16 at 07:10:12:
Talking about flexibility, I suspect that 3...Be7 is indeed more accurate if Black is dead-set on playing QGD. On the other hand, 3...Nf6 may offer more options for Black, for example if White plays 4.Nf3 then Black has the extra options of Ragozin 4...Bb4 and Vienna 4...dxc4.


Not to mention 4...c6, 4...c5 and 4...Nbd7 (the last being also a major reply to 4. Bg5).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
zytsang
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2
Joined: 10/03/16
Re: QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
Reply #4 - 10/04/16 at 07:10:12
Post Tools
Talking about flexibility, I suspect that 3...Be7 is indeed more accurate if Black is dead-set on playing QGD. On the other hand, 3...Nf6 may offer more options for Black, for example if White plays 4.Nf3 then Black has the extra options of Ragozin 4...Bb4 and Vienna 4...dxc4.

This begs another question: after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6, the opening trees indicates that 4.Nf3 is predominately more popular than either 4.Bg5 or 4.cxd5. Is this really the case when GMs approaches this position, or just because the opening trees account for the transposition from the sequence 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3? Interesting to know.

GM Simon Williams, when commenting on Isle of Man 2016 Round 1, suggested that 3...Be7 forces 4.Nf3. I am not sure if it is a slip of the tongue, since 4.Bf4 and 4.cxd5 are certainly possible, but maybe there is some reason for Simon to say that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1310
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
Reply #3 - 10/04/16 at 02:04:51
Post Tools
It's not clear to me which is better.  Seems to be mostly a matter of preference these days.  Not just about the Exchange either; 3..Nf6 or 3..Be7 can affect the Black set-up vs the Main Lines, the Bf4 lines, and even the Catalan.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4245
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
Reply #2 - 10/03/16 at 19:03:24
Post Tools
By the way, this reminds me of the latest 1. d4 d5 update, which addresses the old-school ...c6/Be7/Nbd7/0-0 Exchange with Nf3.  I wonder if there will be a follow-up about Nge2.  (I've only seen the summary stuff.)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1925
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
Reply #1 - 10/03/16 at 17:32:30
Post Tools
Well 3 is easy to answer - its quite a good line and all, but it definitely isn't so good as to invalidate any other treatment of the position Smiley

Variety is an inherently good thing and white is still ~+/= in the main line QGD's.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
zytsang
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2
Joined: 10/03/16
QGD: 3...Nf6 vs 3...Be7
10/03/16 at 15:52:21
Post Tools
I heard from many sources, like Seirawan commenting in Sinquefield Cup and NM Dereque Kelley in one of his youtube videos, suggesting that after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3, 3...Be7 is more accurate than 3...Nf6.

I understand that the main problem for 3...Nf6 move order is the Exchange Variation 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5, which is precisely the 3...Be7 move order avoids. Although after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7, White can still go sharp by playing 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bf4 c6 6.e3 Bf5 7.g4.

My questions are:
1. If theory suggests 3...Be7 is more accurate, why would anyone still plays 3...Nf6? When I was checking the latest database, 3...Nf6 is still more popular than 3...Be7.
2. Why would any GM willing to defend the Black side in the QGD Exchange Variation after 3...Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5? I know Black is solid, but theory considers Black passive.
3. After 3...Nf6, if the Exchange Variation 4.cxd5 is so good, why would any GM opting for 4.Bg5 or 4.Nf3?

Many thanks you for your time Wink
« Last Edit: 10/03/16 at 20:03:09 by zytsang »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo