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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Bogo Indian vs Old Indian (Read 2370 times)
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #15 - 09/10/17 at 13:59:02
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Late to this discussion, but I rather thought that one of the advantages the Bogo had over the Old Indian was that the exchange of a pair of minor pieces left Black's position less cramped. I can't pretend to be an expert in either line (and would echo the importance of taste above), but I remember getting squeezed in the Old Indian, and had knights and bishops tripping over each other in close quarters.
  

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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #14 - 12/10/16 at 17:21:06
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I would add that Nimzo/Bogo allows more strategic flexibility and room for expansion, while Old Indian is relatively narrow and limited.  In a year or two, a person might want to play light-square systems off of Sielecki's narrow path, or swap Bogo for QID/QGD/Benoni.  Not everyone values strategic flexibility, although some of those who do not might come to find that they do, given enough time and practical trials.  In another "which is better?" thread (Najdorf vs Dragon that time), Barnaby commented those who prefer to order the same meal on every visit to a particular restaurant may prefer Dragon.  All of that is to say Bogo can be a staging area to branch out to QID/Ragozin/QGD/Benoni/etc. (while Nimzo has enough variety for a lifetime in chess) and that aspect might present value to certain people.
  

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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #13 - 12/10/16 at 04:40:24
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He offers 4..d6 as a secondary option.
  
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #12 - 12/10/16 at 01:25:59
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ReneDescartes wrote on 12/09/16 at 14:41:18:
Meanwhile, the fashionable 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Nd2 O-O 5.a3 Be7 6.e4 d5 7.e5 gives White a gigantic center and kingside attack.

LeeRoth wrote on 12/09/16 at 20:04:35:
while I tend to agree with ReneDescartes about 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Nbd2 O-O 5.a3 Be7 6.e4 d5 7.e5, Sielecki thinks Black is holding his own here.

This seems to be one of the few lines of the Bogo-Indian in which Black can lose very horribly and very quickly, but 6...d6, intending to play ...e5, seems to be perfectly playable and has been essayed by a lot of strong players. True, Black is somewhat cramped and White still has the gigantic centre, but there's no kingside attack. I'm a bit surprised this isn't Sielecki's recommendation, actually, as it seems more in keeping strategically with the rest of his proposed repertoire, as far as I can tell.
  
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #11 - 12/09/16 at 20:04:35
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ReneDescartes wrote on 12/09/16 at 14:41:18:
You asked about the Bogo. I guess I don't agree that it enjoys the objective reputation of the Nimzo, but you can try to build a dark-square structure after trading off your dark-square bishop rather than while having it buried on e7. Of course, that often hands White the bishop pair or a partly-useful tempo for nothing without doubling his pawns or getting a development advantage, so that's also a +/= for quite a few moves. Meanwhile, the fashionable 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Nd2 O-O 5.a3 Be7 6.e4 d5 7.e5 gives White a gigantic center and kingside attack.

However, to pair with the Nimzo on 3. Nf3, the 31060D062706100002111706106302 and the Tartakower or Lasker QGD after the transposition with 3...d5 are universally respected on the objective front.

But I second the thought that += vs. = isn't really that important for mortals (or for immortals named Carlsen). The free-hand thing has its positive side. With the Old Indian you'd certainly avoid theory. Most players don't have anything extensively prepared against it. In fact, even the Everyman opening monograph on it says there just isn't much theory--a bit like the Modern in earlier times, but on the classical Steinitzian side. I even know one master who admits he never knows what to do against the Old Indian. You could pair it with the Philidor and write A Cramped, Passive, Solid Repertoire for Black.


Fully agree.

The original question asked about the Bogo/Nimzo vs. the Old Indian.  I stand by my statement that as a paired defense the Bogo/Nimzo is objectively better than the Old Indian.  After all, you get to play the Nimzo some of the time, and it is the best of the three defenses.

Looked at in isolation, is the Bogo better or worse than the OID?  Well, in all seriousness, how much does that really matter?  It's not like you can just play the Bogo as your 1.d4 defense; obviously you need to pair it with something else and White needs to cooperate. 

Nonetheless, I do think of the Bogo as being better than the OID.  YMMV.  But to me, anyway, the 4.Bd2 a5 line seems fine for Black, and, while I tend to agree with ReneDescartes about 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Nbd2 O-O 5.a3 Be7 6.e4 d5 7.e5, Sielecki thinks Black is holding his own here. 

As to the Zurich variation, I'm not a big fan. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 Nc6 5.Nf3 d5 6.Bd2 0-0 7.a3 Bxc3 8.Qe7 and now:

9.e3 e5 10.d5 Nb8 11.Nd2 c6 12.dxc6 Nxc6 13.Bd3 Nd4 14.Qb1 Ne6 15.b4 b6 is recommended by Gustafsson as better for White.  To his credit, Sielecki concedes that White is more comfortable, although he notes that Black remains solid.   

9.e4 e5 10.d5 Nb8 11.Be2 when 11..a5 12.c5 Nd7 has been thought to be better for White since Ward-Palliser, British Ch. 2001.  Sielecki suggests 12..Bg4, which he thinks is fine for Black.

 
  
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #10 - 12/09/16 at 16:15:37
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ReneDescartes wrote on 12/09/16 at 14:41:18:
You could pair it with the Philidor and write A Cramped, Passive, Solid Repertoire for Black.


Call the Philidor, oh, I don't know, let's call it the Lion, and then call the Old Indian, let's say the Panther, and write:

A Terrifying Repertoire with the Lion and Panther defence! Raaaaaaaargh!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #9 - 12/09/16 at 14:41:18
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You asked about the Bogo. I guess I don't agree that it enjoys the objective reputation of the Nimzo, but you can try to build a dark-square structure after trading off your dark-square bishop rather than while having it buried on e7. Of course, that often hands White the bishop pair or a partly-useful tempo for nothing without doubling his pawns or getting a development advantage, so that's also a +/= for quite a few moves. Meanwhile, the fashionable 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Bb4+ 4.Nd2 O-O 5.a3 Be7 6.e4 d5 7.e5 gives White a gigantic center and kingside attack.

However, to pair with the Nimzo on 3. Nf3, the QID and the Tartakower or Lasker QGD after the transposition with 3...d5 are universally respected on the objective front.

But I second the thought that += vs. = isn't really that important for mortals (or for immortals named Carlsen). The free-hand thing has its positive side. With the Old Indian you'd certainly avoid theory. Most players don't have anything extensively prepared against it. In fact, even the Everyman opening monograph on it says there just isn't much theory--a bit like the Modern in earlier times, but on the classical Steinitzian side. I even know one master who admits he never knows what to do against the Old Indian. You could pair it with the Philidor and write A Cramped, Passive, Solid Repertoire for Black.
  
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #8 - 12/06/16 at 12:31:11
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The Zurich shows up in repertoire books because it's easy to cover in repertoire books, surely, not because of its objective merits.  Smiley

On the other hand, the benefit that it has over the Old Indian is you are forcing White to make some key decisions quite early, whereas in the Old Indian, White has an essentially free hand, which can theoretically be defensible, but that's not a very practical way of playing.
  

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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #7 - 12/05/16 at 00:46:22
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MartinC wrote on 12/04/16 at 23:05:16:
The Zurich is meant to be +/= with white's best play, yes, but it still sound enough to say have turned up in a couple of reasonably serious repitoire books.


The Tarrasch shows up in serious repertoire books as well, and black does nothing but suffer in that.   Grin

I didn't think the Old Indian was considered unsound either, just solid and not super exciting.  The Zurich and Bogo seem like much the same sort of thing to me. 
  
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #6 - 12/04/16 at 23:05:16
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It isn't something someone can say quickly here I think. You'll have to study lots of theory/games to get it Smiley

Its just slightly easier - that is very evident from the distinct difference in the quantity of GM games with all of these things.

The Zurich is meant to be +/= with white's best play, yes, but it still sound enough to say have turned up in a couple of reasonably serious repitoire books.
  
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #5 - 12/04/16 at 20:08:43
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LeeRoth wrote on 12/04/16 at 19:25:25:
The Nimzo/Bogo is objectively better than the Old Indian.  The Nimzo, in particular, is one of Black's best defenses to 1.d4, while the Old Indian is generally thought of as +/=.  It is, however, more important to play a defense that you like and understand than to play something that is considered better by theory.  I'd rather be a little worse and know what to do, than be equal and have no idea.


Does that assessment hold for just the lines in the Nimzo/Bogo where black puts pawns on d6 and e5, such as the Zurich variation?  Isn't the Zurich also generally thought of as +/=?

As for the Bogo, in what specific way is that objectively superior to the Old Indian?  I need details, because +/= doesn't mean much to me.
  
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #4 - 12/04/16 at 19:25:25
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The Nimzo/Bogo is objectively better than the Old Indian.  The Nimzo, in particular, is one of Black's best defenses to 1.d4, while the Old Indian is generally thought of as +/=.  But pick the defense that you like the best and can understand.  That's usually more important than some theoretical evaluation.    
  
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #3 - 12/04/16 at 12:34:48
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One positive thing about old Indian is that is less common and people would tend to react same way as against a KID. People entering volunteering in a nimzo for sure know the stuff well, usually.

But I don't like Old Indian positions myself, a pure subjective feeling.
  
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #2 - 12/03/16 at 19:06:02
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katar wrote on 12/03/16 at 18:31:44:
Do you want the darksquare bishop outside the pawn chain or behind a pawn on d6?


I don't mind either way.  Is it a matter of taste, or is one objectively better than the other? 

My problem is that, between the Nimzo Zurich/Bogo combo and the Old Indian, neither looks any better or worse than the other to my limited understanding of the game, but the Old Indian sure looks like a lot less work to learn.
  
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Re: Bogo Indian vs Old Indian
Reply #1 - 12/03/16 at 18:31:44
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Do you want the darksquare bishop outside the pawn chain or behind a pawn on d6?
  

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