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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line (Read 6149 times)
MNb
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #27 - 05/19/18 at 08:12:10
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/19/18 at 01:41:04:
You provided the Scotch move order. White can also go for the Italian move order.

If White is going for the d2-d4 variations against both the Italian (Giuoco Piano) and the Two Knights then the Scottsih move order 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 is more precise. Black is almost forced to take on d4. That's not the case after 3.Bc4 Be7 4.d4 d6 5.Nc3 Nf6. Compare Tal-Filip, Astalos Mem 1963. White won (the line is easier for White anyway) but still it's nice to play Bf4 in one go instead of Tal's 9.Be3 and 11.Bf4.
The downside of the Scottish Gambit of course is making it impossible to play the Evans Gambit and 4.Ng5 against the Two Knights.


FreeRepublic wrote on 05/19/18 at 01:41:04:
As far as I can tell, white can also play: A) 1e4 e5 2d4 exd 3Nf3,

Yes, but 3...Bb4+ is stronger now as 4.c3 (4.Bd2 is not to be feared) dxc3 5.Nxc3 Nc6 6.Nf3 forces a transposition to the main line of the Göring Gambit.

FreeRepublic wrote on 05/19/18 at 01:41:04:
B) 1e4 e5 2Bc4 Nf6 3d4 exd 4Nf3,

Yes, but there are 2...Nc6 and 2...Bc5 to deal with. Also 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Bb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 might be even stronger than similar lines.
2...Nc6 3.Nf3 Be7 (the Hungarian) forces slow positional play, exploiting a small advantage. That's objectively good, but not the type of play White is aiming for when playing the Scottish Gambit.

FreeRepublic wrote on 05/19/18 at 01:41:04:
and perhaps C) 1e4 e5 2d4 exd 3Bc4.

Again there is 3...Bb4+.

FreeRepublic wrote on 05/19/18 at 01:41:04:
Every sequence allows alternatives for each side.

And they might be more difficult to tackle.

FreeRepublic wrote on 05/19/18 at 01:41:04:
These additional lines have the merit of avoiding many lines of the Petroff.

Given my lifelong dislike of the Petroff this is an important argument. I'd say White's best bet is 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.Nf3 as Nf6 4.e5 Ne4 5.Qxd4 d5 6.exd6 Nxd6 7.Bf3 Nc6 8.Qd2 is an attractive and easy way to play. Not all lines of the Petroff are to be avoided and 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 exd4?! is one of them.
  

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FreeRepublic
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #26 - 05/19/18 at 01:41:04
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SWJediknight wrote on 12/12/17 at 23:24:26:
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 is the right move, instead of 5.0-0 d6 intending 6...Bg4.  Then White has to have something ready in the Giuoco Piano after 5...Nf6; I suggest that White is better off exploring the sidelines 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2, 6.0-0 and/or 6.e5 rather than going into the defused main lines with 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 or 7.Bd2.


Your entire post is a great assessment, though the sidelines remain interesting. Fishbein provides an in-depth look at his preferred variation following 6e5, and that may be white's most promising line.

You provided the Scotch move order. White can also go for the Italian move order. As far as I can tell, white can also play: A) 1e4 e5 2d4 exd 3Nf3, B) 1e4 e5 2Bc4 Nf6 3d4 exd 4Nf3, and perhaps C) 1e4 e5 2d4 exd 3Bc4. Every sequence allows alternatives for each side. These additional lines have the merit of avoiding many lines of the Petroff.
  
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #25 - 05/19/18 at 00:12:02
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Spock68 wrote on 10/17/17 at 19:39:00:
It's in the book! Chapter 2, Game 10 for 4...Bb4+


Thanks! I missed that.
  
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #24 - 05/19/18 at 00:04:14
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PatzerNoster wrote on 10/10/17 at 23:48:29:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4: 4.Bc4 Bb4+ I don't understand how he couldn't include this variation, since a gambit should be tested by its acceptance, and this seems one of the most logical ways to do that.


Danish Dynamite discusses this in Chapter 4c (location 3175 in the kindle edition).

After 4...Bb4?! 50-0 the author states "This is very risky as it is an improved version of the Goring Gambit." Risky for black?

After 4...Bb4?! 5bxc, the he says "It can be seen as an improved version of the Evans Gambit." Improved for white?

After 4...Bb4?! 5Nxc3, we get the Goring Gambit analyzed extensively in chapter 2a (location 1806).

I'm pretty new to kindle books and it's possible that all these location numbers would be wrong with a change in font.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #23 - 12/12/17 at 23:24:26
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The piece for three pawns line is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bb4+ 5.c3 dxc3 6.0-0 cxb2 7.Bxb2 Nf6 8.Ng5 0-0 9.e5 Nxe5!? 10.Bxe5 d5 if I remember correctly.
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In that line White has no real hope of chopping off the d5-pawn because not only is it currently defended twice, but there are also tactics against the knight on g5.

However I think White can stop Black from getting in that piece-for-pawn sac in such favourable circumstances, by refraining from an immediate Nf3-g5.  White can try 8.e5 immediately or 8.a3 followed by Nc3.  The sac with ...Nxe5 doesn't work if Black has not castled yet, and if Black's knight gets chased away from f6, ...Nxe5, Bxe5 d5 can often be met by Bxd5.  Thus I tend to think of 6.0-0 and 6.bxc3 as being of roughly equal value.

After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.c3 is the right move, instead of 5.0-0 d6 intending 6...Bg4.  Then White has to have something ready in the Giuoco Piano after 5...Nf6; I suggest that White is better off exploring the sidelines 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nbd2, 6.0-0 and/or 6.e5 rather than going into the defused main lines with 6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 or 7.Bd2.  Vincent Moret recently advocated 7.Nc3 in his book My First Chess Opening Repertoire for White: A Turn-Key Package for Ambitious Beginners, which I think is fine for his intended audience, but I wouldn't expect it to hold up well above 2000 Elo standard.
  
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #22 - 10/19/17 at 08:26:26
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After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bb4+ 5. c3 dxc3 I prfer 6. O-O, rather than 6. bxc3 Ba5 7.O-O Bb6, because after 6... cxb2 7. Bxb2 Nf6 8. Ng5 O-O 9. e5 d5 I think Black is under pressure after 10. exf6 dxc4 11. Qh5 h6 12. Ne4. Maybe it's playable but I wouldn't like to enter this line deliberately.

Concerning 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. e5 Ng4 6. O-O I don'tlike 6...Bc5 because after 7. Bf4 O-O 8. h3
Nh6 9. Bxh6 gxh6 10. c3 White has the better prospects as Sam Collins points in his book "A Simple Chess Opening Repertoire for White"
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #21 - 10/17/17 at 22:45:07
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You are right, I missed that  Embarrassed

The author agrees with MNb that 6.bc3: is the most promising continuation, with compensation, but Black is also not without chances after 6. ... Ba5 7.0-0 Bb6!

Did I also miss the other line I quoted?

Somehow I find it hard to navigate the book without a variation index (I have the Kindle version).
  
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #20 - 10/17/17 at 19:39:00
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PatzerNoster wrote on 10/10/17 at 23:48:29:
I have the book and like it, but it seems the author misses two (more or less) important lines:

  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4: 4.Bc4 Bb4+ I don't understand how he couldn't include this variation, since a gambit should be tested by its acceptance, and this seems one of the most logical ways to do that.
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4: 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.e5 Ng4 6.0-0 Bc5 is a logical move in that position that was played a couple of 100 times


Does somebody know other sources I could consult on that?

Apart from these omissions I think it is a good and honest book!


It's in the book! Chapter 2, Game 10 for 4...Bb4+
  
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #19 - 10/11/17 at 08:13:37
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kylemeister wrote on 10/11/17 at 00:46:30:
weak due to 5. c3 dc 6. 0-0.

Black can always reach a positipn in which he/she has three pawns for a knight; two of them dominate the centre, eg cxb2 7.Bxb2 Nf6 8.Ng5 O-O 9.e5 d5.
8.bxc3 is the road to a white advantage;  This is basically an improved Evans Gambit (no black pawn on d4).
It's a shame that the book doesn't contain this line.
  

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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #18 - 10/11/17 at 00:46:30
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Regarding 4...Bb4+ (maybe a common choice at lower levels?), I don't recall what e.g. Danish Dynamite had to say about it, but I know that it used to be considered weak due to 5. c3 dc 6. 0-0. (Of White's last, I have a recollection of Bernard Zuckerman writing something like "this ancient move leaves the bishop looking silly, pinning the ghost of White's knight," and I think the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings gave it as leading to a clear advantage for White.)
  
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #17 - 10/10/17 at 23:48:29
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I have the book and like it, but it seems the author misses two (more or less) important lines:

  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4: 4.Bc4 Bb4+ I don't understand how he couldn't include this variation, since a gambit should be tested by its acceptance, and this seems one of the most logical ways to do that.
  • 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4: 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.e5 Ng4 6.0-0 Bc5 is a logical move in that position that was played a couple of 100 times


Does somebody know other sources I could consult on that?

Apart from these omissions I think it is a good and honest book!
  
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #16 - 08/21/17 at 16:34:47
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Think I've said it before, but bizarrely there is some great explanation of the opening by Sveshnikov in his book on the Advance French  Smiley
  
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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #15 - 08/21/17 at 07:46:00
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The Scotch Gambit was covered briefly in an article in '50 Moves Magazine' about one and a half years ago. It was called 'Attacking Openings for White' if I recall correctly.

  

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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #14 - 08/21/17 at 05:06:55
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BobbyDigital80 wrote on 08/18/17 at 22:12:26:
That Scotch Gambit book by Fishbein does indeed look very interesting! I'm getting kind of sick of playing the Ruy Lopez. I think I might start playing this Scotch Gambit line. I did play it several times years ago but my only reference was the Alburt/Dzindzi book Chess Openings For White, Explained, which I wasn't impressed with. But this new book looks like it might be very good!


I'm looking forward to this book too, as I have a kinda nostalgic soft spot for the Scotch Gambit. Perhaps this Opening from my dim and distant youth could be a viable surprise weapon once again.

David Smerdon of Smerdon Scandinavian fame could perhaps make The Scotch Gambit the topic of a second book, as this was his main weapon for many, many years. It still amazes me that Smerdon managed to attain a GM Title using lets say very suspicious Opening Lines  such as The Milner Barry Gambit, Scandinavian Gambit, Scotch Gambit etc. reminds me a lot of Ginger GM (Simon Williams) in that way, but I digress.

Fishbein mentions Bologan, Collins, Lokander and Ntirlis in the forward of his book and thanks them for providing good reference points for further analysis or something to that effect,  but it smacks more of a backhanded compliment to me. He also suggests that a recent development casts doubt on the recommendation given in Ntirlis' Book, and this really has my curiosity piqued as this is a line I play as Black and have full confidence in.

Having said all that I'm still secretly rooting for Fishbein, and hope that his findings prove much more compelling than Dzinzi's many many many iterations on this Gambit.

Peace.
  

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Re: Book about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 line
Reply #13 - 08/18/17 at 22:12:26
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That Scotch Gambit book by Fishbein does indeed look very interesting! I'm getting kind of sick of playing the Ruy Lopez. I think I might start playing this Scotch Gambit line. I did play it several times years ago but my only reference was the Alburt/Dzindzi book Chess Openings For White, Explained, which I wasn't impressed with. But this new book looks like it might be very good!
  
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