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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) GM repertoire - Pirc (Read 15125 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #34 - 01/02/18 at 08:29:25
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Hello and welcome to the forum. Smiley

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Qc7 7.a4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 b6 10.Nd2

Is what Marin doesn't like (see Marin 2017 p.40). He only gives 10...Bb7 though.

Have a nice year all.
  
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Hale-Bopp
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #33 - 01/01/18 at 14:18:18
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Hi,

with great interest I have followed your discussion. However, I would really like to know what the problem with 9. ...b6 is supposed to be. I've been playing the Pirc for quite some time now and always relied on this line.
Does anyone know where Marin sees the problems there?

Thank you!

Have a good start into the new year,

Hale-Bopp
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #32 - 12/28/17 at 10:54:02
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Hi.

JEH wrote on 12/26/17 at 18:32:59:
Thanks for the game. I'd only had a very quick look at the line. Seems I'm in good company with Ulf  Wink

It highlights the point of the waiting move, in that after Qd2, the Qb1 plan is no longer available.

It's a very subtle and tricky opening for both players  Smiley

I just thought now about how moving the f3 knight in these structures is a common plan. Usually it goes to d2 but in the position after 9...Re8 maybe 10.Ng5!? can be tried; otherwise 10.Nd2 e5 11.d5 cxd5 12.exd5 and it seems harsh to believe this is so bad for black.
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Qc7 7.a4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 Re8 10.Ng5!?
(10...b6 11.f4) I suspect is not so great for black but I guess it should be playable.
(10...e5 11.Bc4) Seems dangerous.
(10...h6!? 11.Nf3) And while it is not obvious white has got anything major from his knight manouvre, by involving the queen against the now more exposed h-pawn, he will likely win back the tempo he lost. The general idea then is that black's advanced h-pawn counts slightly against him positionally; even if a long game is likely needed for it to have a chance to be a liability at some point.

Have a nice day.
  
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JEH
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #31 - 12/26/17 at 18:32:59
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/26/17 at 18:21:00:
Using your 9...Re8 it seems like Ulf Andersson managed to achieve a result that was satisfactory (for both parties Smiley).


Thanks for the game. I'd only had a very quick look at the line. Seems I'm in good company with Ulf  Wink

It highlights the point of the waiting move, in that after Qd2, the Qb1 plan is no longer available.

It's a very subtle and tricky opening for both players  Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #30 - 12/26/17 at 18:21:00
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Hello.

JEH wrote on 12/26/17 at 13:05:30:
Inspired by the Ivanchuck waiting move 9. ..Re8! in the Accelerated Classical, how about 9. ..Re8, so after e5, e4 is immediately under threat, but Black isn't committed to e5 just yet.

It does look like a constructive move with some points behind it. To avoid going into something like the following related series of moves (not liked by Marin, see "Grandmaster Repertoire - The Pirc Defence", p.62)
(1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.a4 Qc7 8.Be3 e5 9.h3 Re8 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.a5)

A practical point, whenever you've played e5 as black, would probably be to try Nxe5. For example:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.a4 Qc7 8.Be3
Granted not really the move order discussed earlier. Moving on though...
8...Nbd7 9.h3 Re8 10.a5 e5 11.dxe5 Nxe5
and we've avoided something similar to the above line.

Or you can try postponing e7-e5 for a while longer. In fact...
Using your 9...Re8 it seems like Ulf Andersson managed to achieve a result that was satisfactory (for both parties Smiley).


Have a nice day.
  
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JEH
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #29 - 12/26/17 at 13:05:30
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pirc kid wrote on 12/23/17 at 22:34:29:
As in Chapter 1 explained, if White aims for the well known classical setup, Marin explained why to avoid this line

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.h3 Nbd7 8.a4 Qc7 9.Be3

where Marin see problems with both 9...b6 and 9...e5, and therefore wanted to avoid it in the first place.  Instead he recommends 7... Qc7 followed by quick e5 and exd4.

[snip]

Did I miss anything?


Inspired by the Ivanchuck waiting move 9. ..Re8! in the Accelerated Classical, how about 9. ..Re8, so after e5, e4 is immediately under threat, but Black isn't committed to e5 just yet.


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #28 - 12/25/17 at 15:17:32
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Hi.

pirc kid wrote on 12/23/17 at 22:34:29:
Did I miss anything?

Nope. This appears to be a definite move order problem related to the repertoire.

pirc kid wrote on 12/23/17 at 22:34:29:
Other 6th moves such as 6...e5 (7.de5 de5, 8.Bc4 Bg7, 9.Qd6) or 6...Bg7 (7.e5) are not that convincing.

Yes. Not so easy to play black at all after 6.Nf3.

Maybe 6...Qa5 is the only move that does not present immediate drawbacks; although I am not saying there won't be any in the future.

After 6...e5:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 e5 7.dxe5 dxe5 8.Bc4 Bg7?
Is not so good and black can play a bit tougher.
Maybe 8...h6 and white is robbed of Ng5 at least.
8...Bb4 is an idea as well when white should probably play 9.0-0(!) with good chances to put pressure on black, although not without some decent play still being needed.

If 6...Qc7 7.a4 maybe 7...e5 is now an alternative as well. Ok that there might be some questons if this Qc7+Nbd7 setup really has a future or if you are just playing moves as black.

and of course 6...Bg7 7.Be2 (or 7.Qd2, which I would probably slightly prefer even) is possible but I don't see how to steer away from Marin's line in a reasonable way.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #27 - 12/23/17 at 22:34:29
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As in Chapter 1 explained, if White aims for the well known classical setup, Marin explained why to avoid this line

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be2 0-0 6.0-0 c6 7.h3 Nbd7 8.a4 Qc7 9.Be3

where Marin see problems with both 9...b6 and 9...e5, and therefore wanted to avoid it in the first place.  Instead he recommends 7... Qc7 followed by quick e5 and exd4.

This White setup is often reached through different move orders, often started as accelerated classical. I think Marin contradicts his repertoire against this setup with chapter 9.

In chapter 9 his chosen move order is 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Nbd7 (the chapter only deals with 6.f4 and 6.g4, no mentioning of transpositions)

So if White plays now 6.Nf3 aiming for the same setup as above, the obvious problem is, that blacks knight is already on d7. If Black now goes 6...Qc7, 7.a4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0, 9.0-0 we reach the same position as above, which Marin wants to avoid.

Other 6th moves such as 6...e5 (7.de5 de5, 8.Bc4 Bg7, 9.Qd6) or 6...Bg7 (7.e5) are not that convincing.

Or I play 4.Le3 c6, 5.h3 Bg7 to solve the classical problem but have to skip Marins repertoire after 6.f4

Did I miss anything?
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #26 - 12/11/17 at 01:21:54
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Hi.

dali wrote on 12/10/17 at 17:07:44:
there's lots of analysis. it's in the book.

Quite right. Smiley

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #25 - 12/10/17 at 17:07:44
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there's lots of analysis. it's in the book.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #24 - 12/10/17 at 12:31:42
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Hi.

TD wrote on 12/08/17 at 09:46:02:
"Nikos with a quick overview on the Mihail Marin book, Grandmaster Repertoire – Pirc Defence"

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/6300

Much appreciated these kind of things it seems. I personally think it's a nice way to promote the book.

Hopefully there will be some analysis coming later as well.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #23 - 12/08/17 at 09:46:02
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"Nikos with a quick overview on the Mihail Marin book, Grandmaster Repertoire – Pirc Defence"

http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/6300
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #22 - 11/09/17 at 06:16:31
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #21 - 11/08/17 at 11:07:20
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http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1891394

I am far less impressed than Gewgaw.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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JEH
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Re: GM repertoire - Pirc
Reply #20 - 11/08/17 at 09:38:39
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gewgaw wrote on 11/07/17 at 12:20:46:
Check the game Naidisch - Ponomarjov


Could someone post the game here?
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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