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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen... (Read 25797 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #16 - 02/12/17 at 14:30:00
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It was the thinness of the first edition that attracted me to the Modern Schevy as something that might be easy to learn and play.  I also viewed it as a stepping stone to the Classical lines. 

The second edition is updated, but it's still only 45 pages of analysis.  About half the "book" is simply filler -- an 80 page database dump of unannotated games.  So for me, it's still basically a big "pamphlet," even if bound and not stapled.

  
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kylemeister
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #15 - 02/12/17 at 04:16:28
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LeeRoth wrote on 02/12/17 at 02:35:14:
2.  Also, after what may be best play in this simplifying line:  8.Bh4 Nxe4 9.Bxe7 Nxc3 10.Bxd8 Nxd1 11.Bc7! Ne3 12.Bxd6 Bd7 13.Bd3! I'd say its a draw with best play.  But my engine says that White actually has a small edge.


Ah, what I remembered is 11. Rxd1, like in a game L. Steiner-Najdorf (which has been cited as equal).

Speaking of the Soltis "pamphlet," I recalled the first edition (1983) as quite thin.  Apparently it was 40 pages, but was beefed up (/stretched out) to 160 in 1995.


  
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LeeRoth
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #14 - 02/12/17 at 02:47:42
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/11/17 at 23:53:09:
I don't remember precisely, but it looks to me like LeeRoth is recommending mostly lines from Craig Pritchett's Starting Out book on the Scheveningen, which I thought was excellent. 


Soltis, actually.  From his 1995 Chess Digest pamphlet on the Schevy.  (See the end of my first post.)

Of course, I had to update some of Soltis's analysis with Pritchett's excellent book. 

BTW, Pritchett's main recommendation is the Modern Schevy with 9..Bd7, which is also an option.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #13 - 02/12/17 at 02:35:14
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kylemeister wrote on 02/11/17 at 20:09:52:
Incidentally I seem to recall Bernard Zuckerman claiming an edge for Black in the simplified position resulting from 8...Nxe4 in that last line.  I've wondered if 6. Bg5 is common at lower levels; it may be ignored in some material (for instance Herman Grooten's [Dutch-language] Scheveningen articles from this page:  http://www.schaaksite.nl/2013/05/03/overzicht-begrijp-wat-u-doet/).


I'm not sure how common 6.Bg5 is, but its something for Black to think about. 

1.  The main recommendation -- 8..Nxe4 -- heads to what's supposed to be a drawn ending.  That's fine, but if you only ever see 6.Bg5 from lower-rated players, that's not exactly what you're looking to do. 

2.  Also, after what may be best play in this simplifying line:  8.Bh4 Nxe4 9.Bxe7 Nxc3 10.Bxd8 Nxd1 11.Bc7! Ne3 12.Bxd6 Bd7 13.Bd3! I'd say its a draw with best play.  But my engine says that White actually has a small edge.

Cool
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #12 - 02/11/17 at 23:53:09
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I don't remember precisely, but it looks to me like LeeRoth is recommending mostly lines from Craig Pritchett's Starting Out book on the Scheveningen, which I thought was excellent.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #11 - 02/11/17 at 20:09:52
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Incidentally I seem to recall Bernard Zuckerman claiming an edge for Black in the simplified position resulting from 8...Nxe4 in that last line.  I've wondered if 6. Bg5 is common at lower levels; it may be ignored in some material (for instance Herman Grooten's [Dutch-language] Scheveningen articles from this page:  http://www.schaaksite.nl/2013/05/03/overzicht-begrijp-wat-u-doet/).
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #10 - 02/11/17 at 19:43:37
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Here is a relatively simple, starting out repertoire for learning the Scheveningen:  1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6

I.  6.Be2 is the main line, when Black plays 9..e5 and 10..exf4.  6..Be7 7.0-0 0-0 8.Be3 (Move order matters, since 8.f4 allows 8..Qb6. Black can also just play 8..Nc6 likely transposing back to the text.) 8..Nc6 9.f4 e5, which has been been played by Spassky and Kasparov. 10.Nb3 is White's best, maintaining the tension.  White gets nothing from the various attempts to take on c6 or e5.  10..exf4 Kasparov's choice, aiming for ..d5.  Now there are two main lines: (a) 11.Bxf4 Be6 12.Kh1 d5 equalizing. Play usually goes 13.e5 Nd7 14.Nxd5 Ndxe5 15.c4 Bg5, when Black is fine. (b) 11.Rxf4 Be6 (11..Ne8 with the idea of 12..Bf6 is also thought to be equal)  12.Nd5 Bxd5 13.exd5 Ne5 is equal.

II.  6.Be3 Be7 7.f3 is the English Attack, which Black can meet with a quick ..d5. 7..Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 when 9.g4 is intended to discourage 9..d5 because of 10.g5. The main line is 10..Nd4 11.Qd4 Nh5 which, according to Pritchett, is fine for Black.  If Black doesn't like this, he can instead play 9..Nd7 10.0-0-0 Nde5 attacking the f-pawn.  The other line is 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxd5 Qxd5, when Black is also thought to be fine.  10.Be2 is the latest fashion here and is supposed to retain a White edge, but, if so, it's still a game with plenty of play left.

III.  6.f4 Nc6! (6..Be7 7.Bb5 Bd7 8.e5 is annoying) 7.Be3 Be7 8.Qf3 is the Suetin Attack.  Black can play 8..e5!? 9.Nxc6 bxc6 10.f5 Rb8 with ..Qa5 to follow.  The alternative:9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 Nd4 11.Bxd4 exd4 12.Nb5 Qa5 13.c3 dxc3 is fine for Black.

IV. 6.g4 is the Keres Attack when 6..h6 7.h4 Be7 was suggested by both Pritchett and Soltis -- I prefer 7..Nc6 -- when 8.Rg1 can be met by 8..d5 and 8.Qf3 can be met by 8..h5 with complicated play in both instances.  White can also play 7.Rg1, 7.h3 and 7.Bg2.  There is too much to cover here; suffice to say that that, while these lines are generally easier to play from the White side, Black can hold his own (the theoretical verdict seems to shift every few years from +/= to = and back again).  If you don't like the Keres, you can play a set-up with ..Nc6/..d6/..e6, and learn the Sozin/Velimirovic in case of White's Bc4.

V.  6.g3 can safely be met with a quick 6..Nc6 7.Bg2 Bd7! Then 8.0-0 Be7 9.Nxc6 Bxc6 10.a4 0-0 is fine for Black.

VI.  6.Bc4 aims for a Sozin or Velimirovic, but Black can cross up White by playing ..Na6 instead of ..Nc6.  For example, 6..Be7 7.Bb3 0-0 8.Be3 Na6.  The Knight turns out to be well-placed on a6 since it can go to c5, hitting the White Bishop and e4 pawn, while defending the Black e6 pawn.

VII.  6.Bg5 usually hopes for a Rauzer or Najdorf.  Black can instead play 6..Be7 7.f4 h6 8.Bh4 when 8..Nxe4 liquidates into an equal ending and 8..Nc6 keeps some life in the game.   
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #9 - 02/11/17 at 16:49:14
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SouthofGrey wrote on 02/10/17 at 17:52:48:
I want to be able to play the opening based on understanding of the position rather than having to memorize a bunch of "only moves" or concrete sequences to get out of the opening.


The Scheveningen is a great opening, where you won't have to memorize long sequences of "only" moves.  It's also not an opening where the defense rests on a hairline.  One of the nice things about the Scheveningen is that, in the main lines, Black doesn't move the pawns in front of his King.  This makes the King's position more resilient and forgiving.  One mistake won't necessarily sink you; it often takes a couple of Black mistakes for White to crash through.  Compared to something like the Dragon, where even the tyros know to pry open the h-file and sac, sac, mate, White has to work harder in the Scheveningen to drum up an effective attack.

However, the Scheveningen is also not an opening that can be played on general understanding; at least not well.  The Scheveningen is complex, with a lot of different plans and pawn breaks.  This flexibility is the Schevy's greatest strength and its greatest weakness.  It is difficult to understand.  For both sides. 

For example, in the Classical Scheveningen lines where White plays Be2, Black has to be on the look out for White to attack with (i) e4-e5, (ii) f4-f5, or (iii) g4-g5.  What do you do as Black when one of these happens?  These types of decisions cannot be made solely based on general considerations; they take calculation and a feel for the position that comes from having studied Schevy games and theory.

There are countless other decisions that Black has to make in the Schevy.  What do you do with your little center?  Do you keep the pawns intact or do you play for ..e5 or ..d5 and, if so, when.  Again, these decisions are hard to make, and they take calculation and study. As a friend of used to say, "Don't just move by hand, remember your ABCs -- always be calculating."      

Martin C. gives good advice.  If you want to start in on the Scheveningen, play the modern lines where you omit ..a6.  These are easier to learn, cut down on the choices, and can be a stepping stone to the classical lines, when you are ready.  I would recommend the repertoire that Soltis himself gave in a Chess Digest pamphlet on the Schevy.  (See the next post.)


  
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ErictheRed
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #8 - 02/11/17 at 04:51:29
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P.s. Stop listening to what a bunch of people on forums think and start thinking and playing for yourself.  When you start to experience problems, then go looking for solutions.  But for now it seems like you want to play the Sicilian Scheveningen (one of the most highly regarded of openings depending a bit on move order), why would you not? 

I also think that a player needs to be well enough versed in chess culture, positional play, tactics, opening play in general, to have the confidence to solve some opening problems over the board.  You don't have to have all of the theory figured out before you go into a game; of course where you draw the line between just winging it and preparation will depend on many factors.

When I was rated just below 2200, I was bored with my normal opening repertoire, and in four consecutive games against 1.d4 over two tournaments I played 2 Tarrasch Defenses and 2 Benko Gambits against people all rated between 1900 and 2180.  I'd never studied any real theory (except for from the White side, as I'm a 1.d4 player), and I scored a perfect 4-0.  I was engaged, excited about my positions, and willing to work hard at the board.

Start playing what you want now, be confident in your ability to play chess and solve the problems as they come, both during the game and after (when you go back to analyze your games).
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #7 - 02/11/17 at 04:49:35
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I agree with Kylemeister in that it depends a lot on what is meant by "class player."  If you're rated 1300 then sure, just read Pawn Structure Chess and get going.  If you're rated 1900, you'll need a little more help. 

But really I think that you're on the right path, just start playing Scheveningen structures until you experience big problems with them.  Read the relevant chapters in Pawn Structure Chess, but also buy another book (or more than one), such as Starting Out: the Scheveningen Sicilian.  You can start playing the opening right away and use the more detailed book as a reference to check after you play a game, and slowly work through it.  You don't have to feel completely booked up and ready to go before jumping into a new opening, especially if you're a "class player."

For the long haul, the Sicilian will be a ton of work, but it will be extremely rewarding and you'd might as well get started on it now.  I got started with the Sicilian when I knew essentially nothing about chess (I went 0-4 with a provisional rating of 928 in my first tournament, and I was 17 years old) and I've played it ever since.  If you fall into the trap of needing to be fully prepared before you start a new opening, you'll never start playing a new opening!  Just start playing it and study as you go, buy a book on the anti-Sicilians when they start giving you a problem, etc.

In the end, any good opening with the highest of pedigrees will require a ton of work, just start playing it now.  Your workload will not be significantly different than many 1...e5 lines, sharp French lines, etc.
  
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SouthofGrey
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #6 - 02/11/17 at 02:39:10
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Yeah maybe this is a bit too much to ask. It just seems that when playing those closed French positions or those Rubenstein structures in the Caro-Kann that there are fewer tactics in the opening and the game is more about how both sides develop the pieces at least until the middlegame. It's true that sometimes White can sac a pawn in the French or play some kind of Ng5 idea in the Caro-Kann but that stuff is rare.

Maybe I'll give it a try anyway though.
  
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #5 - 02/11/17 at 00:31:44
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tl;dr - cannot just learn an opening from pawn structures even though pawn structures are essential.

IMHO, I think there is some confusion here about learning to play chess and openings. Learning an opening is not a linear event. Very well (and to be applauded) to learn pawn structures related to a certain opening but chess at the end of the day is a concrete game. One also has to learn the concrete lines and there will be certain memorisation involved of the main lines (perhaps up to 16-20 ply) and their variations. There is no escape. Of course, pawn structures also help in memorisation as concrete pawn structures help to trigger the memory. There will also be memorisation of the strategic plans associated with different pawn structures (Schevy pawn structure is not just one linear structure). As Martin C pointed out, there are also concrete tactics and tactical themes and motifs associated with each opening and variations.

A good description of learning an opening was proferred by ErictheRed on this Forum when he said he learn to play the Ragozin by learning from Shereshevsky's Endgame book (two-vol, not Strategy book), perhaps we can persuade ErictheRed to provide more details on what happened after he started playing as I guess it will be a non-linear effort.
« Last Edit: 02/11/17 at 13:48:51 by GabrielGale »  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #4 - 02/10/17 at 21:18:19
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I'd say I've been one of the top two fans of PSC on this board, but it sounds as though you're expecting too much from the book.

Incidentally another pawn-structury book I liked (Dynamic Pawn Play in Chess by Marovic) had illustrative games with perhaps every major system against the Schevy, albeit it's pretty old.

One thing I wonder is what "class player" refers to here -- the term covers a lot of ground.
  
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SouthofGrey
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #3 - 02/10/17 at 20:18:34
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MartinC wrote on 02/10/17 at 19:53:43:
If you play it via a set up which delays a6 - either the direct move order or via Nc6/e6/d6 - then the number of really concrete lines drops really quite considerably.

The opening never gets tactics free of course Smiley


Yes I intend to just play the normal move order with ...d6 and ...e6. I just want to get the basic position on the board and then figure things out from there.
  
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Keano
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Re: So I Think I Want to Learn The Sheveningen...
Reply #2 - 02/10/17 at 20:01:37
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good luck with that
  
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