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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2 (Read 3038 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #26 - 01/03/18 at 17:12:17
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The book could have used tighter editing. I skimmed it cover-to-cover some time ago and noticed a few things. Looking again it is easy to pick some of them out.

The bold page headers are frequently wrong. E.g. 1.e5 c5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nge2 Nf6 4.g3 d5 where 2...Nc6 is intended. Chapter 6 has the wrong page header entirely.

The variation letters/numbers are inconsistent. E.g. in the Dragon chapter on pages 125-127 (A similar thing happens in the Classical chapter on pages 140-141.)
  • (a) 10.Qc4 then (a1) 10...Bd7, (a2) 10...Nd7, (a3) 10...Be6, (a31) 11...Rc8, etc.
  • (b) 10.Qb4 then (a){should be b1} 10...Rb8, (b){should be b2} 10...Qc7, (c) 10...a5, (c1) 11.Qb5, etc.
  • (d){should be c} 10.Qd1
  • (e){should be d} 10.a4

There are some missing moves. E.g. on page 103 5.exd5 is missing.

Final point - I didn't notice a single game reference where Carsten Hansen had the white pieces. I would love to be wrong on that one.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #25 - 01/02/18 at 13:00:57
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I have not read the blog yet. The line you mentioned is the same line that made me stop playing g3 vs accelerated. When the book arrives it will be interesting to see if there are some suggested improvement for white.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #24 - 01/02/18 at 06:21:46
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bragesjo wrote on 01/01/18 at 16:05:17:
it goes for g3 vs ..... accelerated Dragon

That's bad advise. 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 g6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 6.Nde2 Nf6 7.g3 O-O 8.Bg2 Rb8 favours Black, who doesn't need to play ...d6. This already is a promising plan in the Dragon Proper (ie 8...d6 9.O-O Rb8).
So I would be curious to learn what the book has to say about it.
Have your read Denis Monokroussos' review?
  

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bragesjo
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #23 - 01/01/18 at 16:05:17
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I  became curios about the new Chamelon book. It appears to enter Dragon, Najdorf and Classical by transposition.  From what I could read from the sample file it goes for g3 vs Dragon and accelerated Dragon but Najdorf and Classical it does not say.

Having played g3 vs both Dragon and Najdorf in the past I became curios especially vs accelerated Dragon since black gets some extra options like a quick b5 in that move order.

I ordered the book today.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #22 - 10/08/17 at 11:55:01
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Ah, I apologize.
Still it's telling that you refuse to explain the other half, the one I am supposed not to understand.

As far as reducing theory goes against all kind of ...g6 setups White can play the Yugoslav Attack with g2-g4 before h4-h5. They are easier to understand (so it seems to me) and score very well. Combine this with De Firmian's idea of playing Rhg1 against the Soltis such a repertoire looks manageable in my eyes.

A harder question is if White can pick aggressive lines against all Sicilians. The combination of the Sozin with the Yugoslav Attack covers a lot, but not everything. Against 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 perhaps 6.f4 is playable eg b5 7.Bd3 Bb7 8.Qe2. And that fits in a 2.Nc3 repertoire.

A positional player could combine the Closed Sicilian with g3 with the Open Fianchettos against...e6 defenses. That probably means 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 (a headache too if White plays the GPA) 3.Nge2 a6 4.g3 and the aforementioned Kuijf-Shaked game.
Of course a universal player can combine all kinds of variations.

So it seems to me that the decision depends on the answers to two questions:

1. How badly do you want to avoid the Kalashnikov (are you willing to throw away the option of the Maroczy against the Accelerated Dragon)?
2. How do you want to meet 2...e6 and 3/4...e6 setups?

Perhaps also
3. How badly do you want to avoid the Najdorf?
But 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.Nge2 Nf6 4.g3 isn't a satisfactory answer in my eyes because of g6, which Black will play against the Closed Sicilian anyway.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #21 - 10/07/17 at 18:21:54
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@MNb - No strawman, that comment was not addressed to you.

@bragesjo - The Accelerated Dragon without Maroczy Bind is fine for black. I have played it myself (as well as regular Dragon). In fact that's why I want to play against it as white. I know the lines and understand the positions, not even necessarily better than black knows them, but better than I know the white side of other variations. If the Accelerated Dragon is acceptable to black, then the Chameleon presents no move order problems. But it still offers white some say in which open variation appears on the board. Your summary of what white gives up is accurate.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #20 - 10/07/17 at 11:03:55
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/06/17 at 19:53:02:
Okay then no more 2.Nc3 for me. After 1.e4 c5, all the games must proceed 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3. I am ready! What's that you say? I cannot require black to play these moves? Oh, well.

Those are your words, not mine. Attacking a strawman is always much easier, don't you think? Way much easier than explaining that other half of the idea behind the Chameleon I apparently don't understand. I appreciate your non-effort.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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bragesjo
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #19 - 10/07/17 at 10:04:39
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/06/17 at 19:53:02:
MNb wrote on 10/06/17 at 11:04:55:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
Some systems (Kalashnikov and to some extent Sveshnikov) are avoided by the Chameleon move order.

This is a somewhat meaningless statement, because White always can avoid any Open Sicilian simply by refusing to play d2-d4.
I am glad you understand one-half of the idea behind the Chameleon.


bragesjo wrote on 10/06/17 at 13:06:39:
Also about Dragon, if it was not becouse of  Maroczy many more players would consider to play Accelerated Dragon, not only Dragon proper players.
Okay then no more 2.Nc3 for me. After 1.e4 c5, all the games must proceed 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3. I am ready! What's that you say? I cannot require black to play these moves? Oh, well.



If we skip the sarcasm,in accelerated Dragon black can play d7-d5 in one move thus ruling out many white setups that works in regular Dragon. So black does not need to fear yugusoslav 9 0-0-0 in Dragon or Marocy in accelerated Dragon, thus the 2 most criticlal lines are ruled out.  You should be fine to play it however, but you need to find a line that works vs both , like Be2 Bg5 system or you are forced to  Bc4 or 9 Bc4 yugoslav. There is nothing wrong with it but I thought the idea by the move order was the reduce theory.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #18 - 10/06/17 at 19:53:02
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MNb wrote on 10/06/17 at 11:04:55:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
Some systems (Kalashnikov and to some extent Sveshnikov) are avoided by the Chameleon move order.

This is a somewhat meaningless statement, because White always can avoid any Open Sicilian simply by refusing to play d2-d4.
I am glad you understand one-half of the idea behind the Chameleon.


bragesjo wrote on 10/06/17 at 13:06:39:
Also about Dragon, if it was not becouse of  Maroczy many more players would consider to play Accelerated Dragon, not only Dragon proper players.
Okay then no more 2.Nc3 for me. After 1.e4 c5, all the games must proceed 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3. I am ready! What's that you say? I cannot require black to play these moves? Oh, well.

  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #17 - 10/06/17 at 13:06:39
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MNb wrote on 10/06/17 at 11:04:55:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
But the Classical is the variation I would least like to face.

I can understand that, because at first sight there is no attractive way to duck the main lines of the Richter-Rauser.


I say it depends. I think that Be2 is interesting, it leads however to an equal position.
One possible drawback are that after g6 white is commited to a Be2 setup vs Dragon.
However that is not a problem in my case since I sometimes play Be2 Be3 Qd2 0-0-0 system.
Also about Dragon, if it was not becouse of  Maroczy many more players would consider to play Accelerated Dragon, not only Dragon proper players.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #16 - 10/06/17 at 11:04:55
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
Some systems (Kalashnikov and to some extent Sveshnikov) are avoided by the Chameleon move order.

This is a somewhat meaningless statement, because White always can avoid any Open Sicilian simply by refusing to play d2-d4. The question is if that's possible in a decent way.
Regarding the Classical 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 d6 4.g3 doesn't look inspiring to me.
Neither does something like 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 Nf6 4.g3 (4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 e5 is the Sveshnikov) g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.O-O O-O 7.d3 Rb8. Of course White here still can play the Open Sicilian with 5.d4, but then the question arises whether White has managed to avoid some variations he/she'd rather prefer to play .....
Even as a way to avoid 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nge2 a6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Qc7 6.g3 Bb4 the Chameleon is not without its problems. Black does well after 4.g3 b5, though I'd like to point at Kuijf-Shaked, Hoogovens 1998.
The question if the cure isn't worse than the disease is a legitimate one.


an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
But the Classical is the variation I would least like to face.

I can understand that, because at first sight there is no attractive way to duck the main lines of the Richter-Rauser. Perhaps you may look at Kere's suggestion 6.Bg5 e6 7.Qd3 idea a6 8.Rad1. Of course Black can play the old main lines with something like Be7 8.O-O-O Nxd4 9.Qxd4. Then 10.f4 and 11.Kb1 against about everything is solid.
But the Kan-Taimanov problem remains.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
For me, the Dragon and/or Accelerated Dragon is the variation I would most like to face,

OK, but many a Dragoneer would immediately switch to the Accelerated Dragon if it weren't for the Maroczy. If they pick up the Kalashnikov (like I have done) the Chameleon just isn't a problem.
  

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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #15 - 10/05/17 at 12:59:00
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I can also add that the book "Modernized Open Sicilian" went for g3 vs both Taimanov and Kan, including allowing Bb4.
Maybee black can equalize vs both but I prefere white in both positions.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #14 - 10/04/17 at 19:13:32
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Speaking of the g3 Taimanov, I'd be interested to hear something about the piece on it by Yakov Geller in the new Informant.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #13 - 10/04/17 at 17:32:38
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Some systems (Kalashnikov and to some extent Sveshnikov) are avoided by the Chameleon move order. Other systems (Taimanov and Kan) the move order has pluses and minuses. Still other systems (Classical and Dragon) it has little to no effect. Note that Soltis was (and maybe still is) an expert on the Velimirovic Sozin and the Yugoslav Dragon, which might have made black players a little reluctant to go there.

My feeling is that the Chameleon move order is quite useful if white really knows the Open Sicilian well and just has preferences for one line versus another. As a "trick" though, it gives black nothing to worry about.

Let me give an example. Against the Taimanov I like to play with g2-g3. Yes, I know it is nothing for white if black plays a quick ...d7-d6 and ...Bc8-d7, but I still like it. However if black plays a Kan move order it is less than nothing. 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.g3 Bb4! which I have also played with black. Using the Chameleon white can avoid this. 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nge2 a6 4.g3 Qc7?! 5.Bg2 Nf6 6.O-O when (a) black is not able to play ...Bf8-b4 against the open, and (b) the closed d2-d3 is also fine for white. None of this is "tricky" in any way. In fact white bypasses the best anti-Kan line, 5.Bd3, but also bypasses the best response to 5.Nc3. As I said, pluses and minuses.

For me, the Dragon and/or Accelerated Dragon is the variation I would most like to face, so the Chameleon has some point. But the Classical is the variation I would least like to face (unless my opponent is a Najdorf player), so the Chameleon is not the perfect weapon.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #12 - 10/04/17 at 11:37:59
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It's kinda funny that this preview does about the same thing as Eric pointed out above with

ErictheRed wrote on 02/13/17 at 23:06:44:
claiming that this leads to equality had more to do with Black repertoire books making it seem as though it's no big deal.


I'm talking about

"It kept most of White’s options open and allowed White to lure Black into unfamiliar territory."
If you combine the Kalashnikov with the Accelerated Dragon (thus avoiding the Maroczy Wall) 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 g6 does not lure Black into unfamiliar territory at all.
It may be most difficult if you play the Najdorf with 6...e5 (that depends for instance on 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 a6 3.Nge2 b5).
I'm not saying that the Chameleon is a bad idea; just don't set your expactations too high. Sooner or later White will run into opponents who have figured out how to deal with it.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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