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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2 (Read 1845 times)
MNb
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #22 - 10/08/17 at 11:55:01
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Ah, I apologize.
Still it's telling that you refuse to explain the other half, the one I am supposed not to understand.

As far as reducing theory goes against all kind of ...g6 setups White can play the Yugoslav Attack with g2-g4 before h4-h5. They are easier to understand (so it seems to me) and score very well. Combine this with De Firmian's idea of playing Rhg1 against the Soltis such a repertoire looks manageable in my eyes.

A harder question is if White can pick aggressive lines against all Sicilians. The combination of the Sozin with the Yugoslav Attack covers a lot, but not everything. Against 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 perhaps 6.f4 is playable eg b5 7.Bd3 Bb7 8.Qe2. And that fits in a 2.Nc3 repertoire.

A positional player could combine the Closed Sicilian with g3 with the Open Fianchettos against...e6 defenses. That probably means 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 (a headache too if White plays the GPA) 3.Nge2 a6 4.g3 and the aforementioned Kuijf-Shaked game.
Of course a universal player can combine all kinds of variations.

So it seems to me that the decision depends on the answers to two questions:

1. How badly do you want to avoid the Kalashnikov (are you willing to throw away the option of the Maroczy against the Accelerated Dragon)?
2. How do you want to meet 2...e6 and 3/4...e6 setups?

Perhaps also
3. How badly do you want to avoid the Najdorf?
But 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.Nge2 Nf6 4.g3 isn't a satisfactory answer in my eyes because of g6, which Black will play against the Closed Sicilian anyway.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #21 - 10/07/17 at 18:21:54
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@MNb - No strawman, that comment was not addressed to you.

@bragesjo - The Accelerated Dragon without Maroczy Bind is fine for black. I have played it myself (as well as regular Dragon). In fact that's why I want to play against it as white. I know the lines and understand the positions, not even necessarily better than black knows them, but better than I know the white side of other variations. If the Accelerated Dragon is acceptable to black, then the Chameleon presents no move order problems. But it still offers white some say in which open variation appears on the board. Your summary of what white gives up is accurate.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #20 - 10/07/17 at 11:03:55
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/06/17 at 19:53:02:
Okay then no more 2.Nc3 for me. After 1.e4 c5, all the games must proceed 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3. I am ready! What's that you say? I cannot require black to play these moves? Oh, well.

Those are your words, not mine. Attacking a strawman is always much easier, don't you think? Way much easier than explaining that other half of the idea behind the Chameleon I apparently don't understand. I appreciate your non-effort.
  

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bragesjo
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #19 - 10/07/17 at 10:04:39
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/06/17 at 19:53:02:
MNb wrote on 10/06/17 at 11:04:55:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
Some systems (Kalashnikov and to some extent Sveshnikov) are avoided by the Chameleon move order.

This is a somewhat meaningless statement, because White always can avoid any Open Sicilian simply by refusing to play d2-d4.
I am glad you understand one-half of the idea behind the Chameleon.


bragesjo wrote on 10/06/17 at 13:06:39:
Also about Dragon, if it was not becouse of  Maroczy many more players would consider to play Accelerated Dragon, not only Dragon proper players.
Okay then no more 2.Nc3 for me. After 1.e4 c5, all the games must proceed 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3. I am ready! What's that you say? I cannot require black to play these moves? Oh, well.



If we skip the sarcasm,in accelerated Dragon black can play d7-d5 in one move thus ruling out many white setups that works in regular Dragon. So black does not need to fear yugusoslav 9 0-0-0 in Dragon or Marocy in accelerated Dragon, thus the 2 most criticlal lines are ruled out.  You should be fine to play it however, but you need to find a line that works vs both , like Be2 Bg5 system or you are forced to  Bc4 or 9 Bc4 yugoslav. There is nothing wrong with it but I thought the idea by the move order was the reduce theory.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #18 - 10/06/17 at 19:53:02
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MNb wrote on 10/06/17 at 11:04:55:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
Some systems (Kalashnikov and to some extent Sveshnikov) are avoided by the Chameleon move order.

This is a somewhat meaningless statement, because White always can avoid any Open Sicilian simply by refusing to play d2-d4.
I am glad you understand one-half of the idea behind the Chameleon.


bragesjo wrote on 10/06/17 at 13:06:39:
Also about Dragon, if it was not becouse of  Maroczy many more players would consider to play Accelerated Dragon, not only Dragon proper players.
Okay then no more 2.Nc3 for me. After 1.e4 c5, all the games must proceed 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 g6 5.Nc3. I am ready! What's that you say? I cannot require black to play these moves? Oh, well.

  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #17 - 10/06/17 at 13:06:39
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MNb wrote on 10/06/17 at 11:04:55:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
But the Classical is the variation I would least like to face.

I can understand that, because at first sight there is no attractive way to duck the main lines of the Richter-Rauser.


I say it depends. I think that Be2 is interesting, it leads however to an equal position.
One possible drawback are that after g6 white is commited to a Be2 setup vs Dragon.
However that is not a problem in my case since I sometimes play Be2 Be3 Qd2 0-0-0 system.
Also about Dragon, if it was not becouse of  Maroczy many more players would consider to play Accelerated Dragon, not only Dragon proper players.
  
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MNb
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #16 - 10/06/17 at 11:04:55
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
Some systems (Kalashnikov and to some extent Sveshnikov) are avoided by the Chameleon move order.

This is a somewhat meaningless statement, because White always can avoid any Open Sicilian simply by refusing to play d2-d4. The question is if that's possible in a decent way.
Regarding the Classical 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 d6 4.g3 doesn't look inspiring to me.
Neither does something like 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 Nf6 4.g3 (4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 e5 is the Sveshnikov) g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.O-O O-O 7.d3 Rb8. Of course White here still can play the Open Sicilian with 5.d4, but then the question arises whether White has managed to avoid some variations he/she'd rather prefer to play .....
Even as a way to avoid 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nge2 a6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Qc7 6.g3 Bb4 the Chameleon is not without its problems. Black does well after 4.g3 b5, though I'd like to point at Kuijf-Shaked, Hoogovens 1998.
The question if the cure isn't worse than the disease is a legitimate one.


an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
But the Classical is the variation I would least like to face.

I can understand that, because at first sight there is no attractive way to duck the main lines of the Richter-Rauser. Perhaps you may look at Kere's suggestion 6.Bg5 e6 7.Qd3 idea a6 8.Rad1. Of course Black can play the old main lines with something like Be7 8.O-O-O Nxd4 9.Qxd4. Then 10.f4 and 11.Kb1 against about everything is solid.
But the Kan-Taimanov problem remains.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/04/17 at 17:32:38:
For me, the Dragon and/or Accelerated Dragon is the variation I would most like to face,

OK, but many a Dragoneer would immediately switch to the Accelerated Dragon if it weren't for the Maroczy. If they pick up the Kalashnikov (like I have done) the Chameleon just isn't a problem.
  

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bragesjo
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #15 - 10/05/17 at 12:59:00
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I can also add that the book "Modernized Open Sicilian" went for g3 vs both Taimanov and Kan, including allowing Bb4.
Maybee black can equalize vs both but I prefere white in both positions.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #14 - 10/04/17 at 19:13:32
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Speaking of the g3 Taimanov, I'd be interested to hear something about the piece on it by Yakov Geller in the new Informant.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #13 - 10/04/17 at 17:32:38
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Some systems (Kalashnikov and to some extent Sveshnikov) are avoided by the Chameleon move order. Other systems (Taimanov and Kan) the move order has pluses and minuses. Still other systems (Classical and Dragon) it has little to no effect. Note that Soltis was (and maybe still is) an expert on the Velimirovic Sozin and the Yugoslav Dragon, which might have made black players a little reluctant to go there.

My feeling is that the Chameleon move order is quite useful if white really knows the Open Sicilian well and just has preferences for one line versus another. As a "trick" though, it gives black nothing to worry about.

Let me give an example. Against the Taimanov I like to play with g2-g3. Yes, I know it is nothing for white if black plays a quick ...d7-d6 and ...Bc8-d7, but I still like it. However if black plays a Kan move order it is less than nothing. 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 a6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.g3 Bb4! which I have also played with black. Using the Chameleon white can avoid this. 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nge2 a6 4.g3 Qc7?! 5.Bg2 Nf6 6.O-O when (a) black is not able to play ...Bf8-b4 against the open, and (b) the closed d2-d3 is also fine for white. None of this is "tricky" in any way. In fact white bypasses the best anti-Kan line, 5.Bd3, but also bypasses the best response to 5.Nc3. As I said, pluses and minuses.

For me, the Dragon and/or Accelerated Dragon is the variation I would most like to face, so the Chameleon has some point. But the Classical is the variation I would least like to face (unless my opponent is a Najdorf player), so the Chameleon is not the perfect weapon.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #12 - 10/04/17 at 11:37:59
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It's kinda funny that this preview does about the same thing as Eric pointed out above with

ErictheRed wrote on 02/13/17 at 23:06:44:
claiming that this leads to equality had more to do with Black repertoire books making it seem as though it's no big deal.


I'm talking about

"It kept most of White’s options open and allowed White to lure Black into unfamiliar territory."
If you combine the Kalashnikov with the Accelerated Dragon (thus avoiding the Maroczy Wall) 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 g6 does not lure Black into unfamiliar territory at all.
It may be most difficult if you play the Najdorf with 6...e5 (that depends for instance on 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 a6 3.Nge2 b5).
I'm not saying that the Chameleon is a bad idea; just don't set your expactations too high. Sooner or later White will run into opponents who have figured out how to deal with it.
  

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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #11 - 10/04/17 at 05:37:28
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By the way, there's a forthcoming book by Carsten Hansen.

https://www.russell-enterprises.com/upcoming-publications/the-chameleon-sicilian...
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #10 - 08/21/17 at 08:20:48
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TN wrote on 08/21/17 at 08:03:15:
Jobava did this in the GCT rapid/blitz events, but with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.Nge2 Nf6 4.g3 to dodge the Najdorf. He lost most of the games with 4...g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.0-0 0-0 7.d3 Nc6 8.h3 (f4/g4/f5 etc), but in my analysis I was unable to find even a symbolic advantage for Black (despite the engine's initial assessment). That might explain why Caruana recently essayed the Closed Sicilian in St Louis - White's plan is quite straightforward as compensation for playing uncritically in the opening.


Such a Closed Sicilian with Nge2 (as opposed to Nf3 as in e.g. Spassky-Geller) reminds me of Portisch recommending it in "How to Open a Chess Game."  Ancient history, yo.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #9 - 08/21/17 at 08:03:15
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Jobava did this in the GCT rapid/blitz events, but with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 3.Nge2 Nf6 4.g3 to dodge the Najdorf. He lost most of the games with 4...g6 5.Bg2 Bg7 6.0-0 0-0 7.d3 Nc6 8.h3 (f4/g4/f5 etc), but in my analysis I was unable to find even a symbolic advantage for Black (despite the engine's initial assessment). That might explain why Caruana recently essayed the Closed Sicilian in St Louis - White's plan is quite straightforward as compensation for playing uncritically in the opening.

I suppose 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 is less popular because of the Accelerated Dragon transposition 3...g6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7, and for that matter 3...Nf6 4.g3 d5!? 5.exd5 Nd4 was also performing well when I last checked.

Finally, 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nge2 a6 4.g3 may prove interesting to you, to move order Black out of certain Kan options (and retain the option of d3/f4-f5, if Black plays an early ...d6).
  

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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #8 - 02/14/17 at 20:10:37
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kylemeister wrote on 02/14/17 at 19:15:12:
However, 10. a4 transposes to Short-Nataf from above ...where 10...Rb8 was supposed to be "!".


Yes, that makes taking on e7 much less attractive.  Well, I'd still investigate avoiding the f2-f4 thrust there as well and try something like 11.c3 or 11.a5.  It might be equal, but it's only move 11 and it seems a little early to declare that all of Black's problems are solved.  It feels to me like the kind of position that is ripe for some home preparation from White.  I don't mean tha it's sharp or the kind of position that you can spring a tactical sequence in, but it's fairly unexplored and I'm willing to bet that a player like Carlsen could find some subtleties to pose Black problems. 

11.a5 Bg5 12.Bxg5 Qxg5 13.Ne3 g6 14.c3 for instance; even if it's not much I wouldn't think that Black is fully equal yet. 
Also 11.a5 b5 12.ab ab 13.c3 b5 14.Bb3 and White has the a-file and can go back to the f2-f4 plan.  14...Bg5?! doesn't work due to 15.Bxg5! Qxg5 16.Ra6 with pressure.  It's a place to start looking.

Anyhow, this wouldn't deter me from playing 3.Nge2, I would just do some homework to find some ways to set Black problems and assume that I'd score fairly well in practice if Black hasn't done the same sort of homework.  If all Black's done is remember up until 10...Rb8! 11.f4 ef 12.Bxf4 Bg5=, for instance, I would think that the home preparation would lead somewhere with a move like 11.a5!?.
  
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