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Normal Topic Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2 (Read 743 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #8 - 02/14/17 at 20:10:37
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kylemeister wrote on 02/14/17 at 19:15:12:
However, 10. a4 transposes to Short-Nataf from above ...where 10...Rb8 was supposed to be "!".


Yes, that makes taking on e7 much less attractive.  Well, I'd still investigate avoiding the f2-f4 thrust there as well and try something like 11.c3 or 11.a5.  It might be equal, but it's only move 11 and it seems a little early to declare that all of Black's problems are solved.  It feels to me like the kind of position that is ripe for some home preparation from White.  I don't mean tha it's sharp or the kind of position that you can spring a tactical sequence in, but it's fairly unexplored and I'm willing to bet that a player like Carlsen could find some subtleties to pose Black problems. 

11.a5 Bg5 12.Bxg5 Qxg5 13.Ne3 g6 14.c3 for instance; even if it's not much I wouldn't think that Black is fully equal yet. 
Also 11.a5 b5 12.ab ab 13.c3 b5 14.Bb3 and White has the a-file and can go back to the f2-f4 plan.  14...Bg5?! doesn't work due to 15.Bxg5! Qxg5 16.Ra6 with pressure.  It's a place to start looking.

Anyhow, this wouldn't deter me from playing 3.Nge2, I would just do some homework to find some ways to set Black problems and assume that I'd score fairly well in practice if Black hasn't done the same sort of homework.  If all Black's done is remember up until 10...Rb8! 11.f4 ef 12.Bxf4 Bg5=, for instance, I would think that the home preparation would lead somewhere with a move like 11.a5!?.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #7 - 02/14/17 at 19:15:12
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However, 10. a4 transposes to Short-Nataf from above ...where 10...Rb8 was supposed to be "!".
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #6 - 02/14/17 at 18:10:40
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Thanks Kylemeister.  I don't have lots of time to get into all of these lines, but if we take 4. Nd5 d6 5. Nec3 Nge7 6. Bc4 Nd5 7. Nd5 Be7 8. d3 O-O 9. O-O Be6

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to be an important tabiya, I've wondered why most people rush with 10.f4 here.  I'd probably look into 10.a4 because 10...Bg5 11.Bxg5 Qxg5 12.Nc7 looks like it'll be better for White, so that 10...Bg5 isn't a threat just yet. 

The game Solodovnichenko-Koch looked more pleasant for White in a practical way, even if it was objectively equal for a while:



If we pause after move 14, White has the two bishops and if Black ever takes on c4 he exposes his d-pawn to attack; I'd be happy with White there.  Black can possibly improve earlier.

But yes, some of those lines do look pretty equal, if uninspiring for Black.  Those aren't the kinds of positions I'm usually looking for when I choose to play the Sicilian, equal or not!
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #5 - 02/14/17 at 07:33:12
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Quote:
Kavalek mentioned a game Hort-Spassky (and that Nec3 was followed by Bc4).  I can't find that game at the moment, but now I'm curious.


Just a quick draw:

[Event "WchT U26 fin-A 09th"]
[Site "Marianske Lazne"]
[Date "1962.07.20"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Hort, Vlastimil"]
[Black "Spassky, Boris V"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B30"]
[PlyCount "27"]
[EventDate "1962.07.07"]
[EventType "swiss ()"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "CZE"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.11.16"]
[WhiteTeam "Czechoslovakia"]
[BlackTeam "Soviet Union"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "CSR"]
[BlackTeamCountry "URS"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nge2 e5 4. Nd5 d6 5. Nec3 Nge7 6. Bc4 Nxd5 7. Nxd5 Be7
8. d3 O-O 9. O-O Na5 10. Bb3 Nxb3 11. axb3 Be6 12. Nxe7+ Qxe7 13. f4 exf4 14.
Bxf4 1/2-1/2
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #4 - 02/14/17 at 04:51:38
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/13/17 at 23:06:44:
I've always been skeptical of Black's position here, and thought that claiming that this leads to equality had more to do with Black repertoire books making it seem as though it's no big deal.  But everything I know about chess says that White must be better here, as Black doesn't have the dynamic play that he does in the Kalashnikov or Sveshnikov. 

Not hugely better or anything, but it's hard to believe that White doesn't get his normal opening advantage at the very least.  Do you know what the equalizing line(s) are supposed to be?


Here are some bits I had seen, from sources that aren't actually recent, but more recent than Kavalek's note, which was in the 1970s.

4. Nd5 d6 5. Nec3 Nge7 6. Bc4 Nd5 7. Nd5 Be7 8. d3 O-O 9. O-O Be6 10. f4 ef4 11. Bf4 Ne5 12. Kh1 Bg5 13. Be5 de5= Rublevsky-Ernst 1992

4. Nd5 Nf6 5. Nec3 Nd5 6. Nd5 Be7 7. Bc4 O-O 8. O-O d6 9. a4 Be6 10. d3 Rb8 11. f4 ef4 12. Bf4 Bg5 13. Qh5 h6 14. Ba2 Bf4 15. Rf4 Qg5 16. Qg5 hg5 17. Rf2 Kh7 18. h3 Kg6 19. c3 Rh8= Short-Nataf 2000

4. Nd5 Nge7 5. Nec3 Nd5 6. Nd5 Be7 7. g3 d6 8. Bg2 h5 9. d3 Bg4 10. f3 Be6 11. c3 h4= Vallejo-Nataf 2001

4. Nd5 Nge7 5. Nec3 Nd5 6. Nd5 Be7 7. g3 d6 8. Bg2 h5 9. h4 Be6 10. d3 Bd5 11. ed5 Nb8 12. f4 Nd7 13. O-O g6 (Spassky-Fischer 1992) 14. f5+=, but 9...Bg4 10. f3 Be6 11. d3 Qd7 12. Be3 Bd8= with the idea of ...Ne7

Kavalek mentioned a game Hort-Spassky (and that Nec3 was followed by Bc4).  I can't find that game at the moment, but now I'm curious.

  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #3 - 02/13/17 at 23:49:58
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Doesn't Black just claim he's playing a Botvinnik System reversed? I'd be surprised if the loss of tempo made a huge difference.
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #2 - 02/13/17 at 23:06:44
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kylemeister wrote on 02/13/17 at 20:09:45:
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 e5 puts me in mind of a long-ago note by Kavalek to the effect that 4. Nd5 followed by Nec3 is better for White, though I think something more recent I saw had it as leading to equality.


I've always been skeptical of Black's position here, and thought that claiming that this leads to equality had more to do with Black repertoire books making it seem as though it's no big deal.  But everything I know about chess says that White must be better here, as Black doesn't have the dynamic play that he does in the Kalashnikov or Sveshnikov. 

Not hugely better or anything, but it's hard to believe that White doesn't get his normal opening advantage at the very least.  Do you know what the equalizing line(s) are supposed to be?
  
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Re: Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
Reply #1 - 02/13/17 at 20:09:45
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It so happens (thinking of the Scheveningen thread) that that sort of thing was the subject of another old thin Soltis book, "The Chameleon Sicilian."

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 e5 puts me in mind of a long-ago note by Kavalek to the effect that 4. Nd5 followed by Nec3 is better for White, though I think something more recent I saw had it as leading to equality.
  
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Sneaking Into the g3 Sicilian With 2.Nc3 & 3.Nge2
02/13/17 at 19:50:44
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I like the idea of being able to play g3 against all the Sicilian variations but against the Kaslashnikov and the Sveshnikov Black can play this ...e5 move and change the nature of the game. So I figured that I might be able to delay the knight move to d4 to be able to avoid this. I am wondering how playable White's game is when Black does not allow White into the open lines.

If we assume that Black is only interested in the ...e5 Sicilians then I think I could meet:

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 e5 4.g3 (4.Nd5!?) with some kind of Botvinnik triangle game

and

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nge2 Nf6 4.g3 d5 5.ed Nxd5 6.Bg2

Are there any issues with White playing this way?
  
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