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Normal Topic 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy (Read 578 times)
Stigma
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #9 - 02/18/17 at 20:38:00
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P. S. There is also a DVD by Sokolov, Sokolov Explains, where parts 2–4 are all directly or indirectly about IQP positions. A lot of the material is the same as in his book, but it's more narrowly focused, largely on the Tarrasch Queen's Gambit, the central pawn break, and symmetrical positions with d4 against d5 (i.e. after a piece exchange on d5 in an IQP position).
  

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Stigma
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #8 - 02/18/17 at 19:51:39
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Both the Baburin and Sokolov books on the IQP look excellent, everybody raves about them. Haven't studied them in depth myself yet. I've relied on Silman's material on this in Reassess Your Chess 3rd ed., which is quite good but not enough for my current level (and his coverage of IQP positions in the totally rewritten 4th edition is even shallower).

I have done very well with the French Tarrasch as White. Many Black players seem poorly prepared for it, whichever line they play (I'm speaking of opponents everywhere from 1600 to 2300). I don't know the theory that well myself either...

Stylistically, compared to the IQP stuff I'm more happy to see 3...Nf6 played, especially when followed up with 11...Qc7 or 11...Qb6 in the traditional main line. This is supposed to be Black's sharpest and most combative way of playing, but with the bad bishop and the e6 pawn in the way of his pieces, he needs to know some concrete ideas to avoid ending up in a bind early on. But then I "always" prefer strategically complex middlegames to more simplified or technical positions, so I may not be a typical 3.Nd2 player.

As Black I've done well with 3.Nd2 c5 intending the IQP line 4.exd5 exd5 5.Ngf3 Nf6 while allowing (and, to be honest, hoping for) the "Universal System" with 4.Ngf3 Nf6 5.e5 Nfd7, but the number of games is too small to read anything into this. I'm sure some painful IQP losses are just around the corner here if I don't study up on it or switch lines.
  

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ReneDescartes
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #7 - 02/18/17 at 17:40:24
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No, I mean they go for it but are not particularly good at it. Sometimes after a while they look a little in over their heads, or surprised that it's not as easy as they thought.
« Last Edit: 02/19/17 at 16:46:45 by ReneDescartes »  
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nocteus
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #6 - 02/18/17 at 17:22:38
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Thank you all for your suggestions !

ReneDescartes wrote on 02/17/17 at 17:07:05:
In my experience, a lot of White players think of the French devotee as preferring closed positions and don't expect it. I think they are, strange as it may sound, a little intimidated. They know this has the rich history of a fundamental main line and they know they're not too booked on it--they are used to the 3...Nf6,3...Be7, and 3...c5 4.exd5 Qxd5 positions recommended by all just-French repertoire books to date. But with my modest talent I'm not exactly playing grandmasters all the time.


That feels strange to me. True, I always see french players around me going for the 3..Nf6 line, since they want to keep the 'french-like structure' in every occasion (Steinitz, advance). But I would expect the white player of the Tarrasch being a more positional oriented player, more at ease against an isolani.
But for me, the french is a fresh opening. Roll Eyes
  
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #5 - 02/18/17 at 16:33:14
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Speaking of old Korchnoi days, that 6...cd reminds me of another of his Candidates matches (vs. Hübner).
  
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #4 - 02/18/17 at 09:22:58
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As mentioned in the quote, the Karpov-Korchnoi match contains a lot of good strategic material for this line.

In terms of modern experts, Short, Ponkratov, Ivanchuk and Zvjaginsev seem the main players to follow, although various other Russian GMs have tried it in one-off games. For instance, Short recently played 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.exd5 exd5 6.Bb5 cxd4 against Howell and Safarli, for a win and draw:





Not that I analysed either game, but this could work against players overly dependent on the computer.
  

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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #3 - 02/17/17 at 23:08:07
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Just out of interest what is your rating, ReneDescartes? I sometimes play the French but always go Nf6. I'm 2020 FIDE and curious to know what strength of players are going exd5.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #2 - 02/17/17 at 17:07:05
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Mednis has a large chapter on this in his "Strategic Themes in Endgames." He goes over some of the classic opening variations using explanations about things like which piece exchanges and which minor piece endgames are most and least favorable, and he analyzes the games through to endgames, about half of which are about how Black holds his own in thematic ways.

Baburin also has a chapter  on this structure ("Play on the e-file") in Winning Pawn Structures. He focuses on White when it arises with colors reversed (e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 e5 4.Bxc4 exd4 5.exd4, some of the the main lines of the Lasker and Orthodox Queen's Gambit after Black plays ...e5, the c3-Sicilian, and the Monte Carlo French, all of which are places to look for more coverage). A lot of the ideas seen with an e-pawn opposing the IQP in the book's other chapters are also relevant here with the c-pawn, and some, though a minority, of the games feature the c-pawn structure.

Sokolov also has a section in Winning Chess Middlegames on this structure (section 2.9). And of course many of the pawn structure transformations in the e-pawn lines can also come from the c-pawn lines.

Honestly, I think what can be stated as general rules here is probably stuff you already know. The thing is to see how the piece play works around the stuff you know, and that can best be done from looking at a lot of games.

I used to play 3...Nf6. Now I enjoy this line more.  In my experience, a lot of White players think of the French devotee as preferring closed positions and don't expect it. I think they are, strange as it may sound, a little intimidated. They know this has the rich history of a fundamental main line and they know they're not too booked on it--they are used to the 3...Nf6,3...Be7, and 3...c5 4.exd5 Qxd5 positions recommended by all just-French repertoire books to date. But with my modest talent I'm not exactly playing grandmasters all the time.
  
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Re: 3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
Reply #1 - 02/15/17 at 09:41:17
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Like he said I think, there's an awful lot of games in such things by some very strong Russian specalists. So stare at those.

If you want to get depressed then go and play through a bunch of games by Adams on the white side.
  
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3... c5 4.exd5 exd5 IQP strategy
02/14/17 at 19:41:46
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Hi, I have been interested in the black side of the isolani in the Tarrasch. There was a nice quote on the forum by Phil Adams:

Quote:
GM Jaan Ehlvest wrote in The Story of a Chess Player: "This is the kind of position where you cannot get help from FRITZ. To play these positions well you must study in depth such games as those in the aforementioned match between Karpov and Korchnoi as well as those in another famous match between Spassky and Petrosian in 1969, where Spassky played the Tarrasch defense. The Russian-American GM Anatoly Lein is also a big specialist in how to handle the isolated pawn. It is not easy to handle – this is why Karpov and Kasparov often avoided these kinds of positions throughout their careers. On the other hand it is true that these positions are for lazy boys. You are not in danger ever as long as you know the general rules of handling them. In the 1974 match, Korchnoi drew all his games against Karpov in the French, and immediately lost two crucial games when he tried to surprise Karpov with another opening.


Problem is: what are 'the general rules' of handling this kind of IQP? Any tip or book to recommend?

Books only cover the IQP with the pawn on e3-e6 for the defending side, which leads to a different piece play: the time invested in developping the queen's bishop can be used dynamically by the opponent, exchanges are harder with the e-column closed, a pawn wedge on e5 (after Ne5 ?xe5 dxe5) can be strong since it cannot be attacked by a Re8, etc.

Thanks!
  
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