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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7 (Read 1088 times)
brabo
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #12 - 03/24/17 at 16:37:24
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Correspondence should normally nowadays be very drawish. However just look at the number of wins for white in the last year. The previous years look similar. That is really abnormal. I wasn't exaggerating with my catastrophic statement.

A recent modelgame of how white crushes black. This game can't be found in the Chessbase online database yet.

Don't get distracted by whites rating. I checked his profile on iccf see https://www.iccf.com/player?id=690538 and I found out that he has not lost any game yet in a span of 42 games. The rating of the Cuban player is raising very fast.
  
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #11 - 03/24/17 at 11:45:09
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LeeRoth wrote on 03/22/17 at 13:39:15:
I think annotated GM games are the way to go. If you study Keres, Fischer, and Karpov in roughly that order, you can't go too far wrong.


Can anyone recommend a particular good source for Keres' games as black in the Spanish?  Doesn't have to be the Chigorin. Keres is one player both my library and general education don't have too much about.
  
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #10 - 03/24/17 at 11:37:28
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brabo wrote on 03/24/17 at 09:37:21:
ako wrote on 03/24/17 at 08:32:42:
Pantu wrote on 03/02/17 at 14:31:44:
I've recently became interested in this variation from black's point of view:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7



I dislike 12.d5 from blacks point of view. White scores there very well.

True however you need to make a clear distinction between correspondence and otb. The most recent scores in correspondence were catastrophic while in otb black still has decent results.
In 2012 I wrote an article on my blog about the weak 12...c4 see http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/09/de-spaanse-doorschuifvariant.html
In 2015 I touched upon the mainline with 12...Bd7. I played a very nice draw with black against a former Russian champion. Anyway I clearly note there are problems for black see http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2015/10/to-disarm.html
Very recently I started to look at 12...Nd7. There is almost 0 theory of it and is very closely related to the 11...Nd7 12.d5 systems.

I play with both colors the Spanish Chigorin with 11...Qc7 for 20 years already see for 2 examples with me playing white : http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2014/03/camouflage.html
and
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-expert.html
I don't know any good books or analysis about this opening except what I made myself over the years. Anyway I notice at 2300 fide that what I know is sufficient to play a decent standard game.


I'd already decided that 12.d5 is something to take a very close look at before even proceeding with anything else, without reaching too many solid conclusions. 12.d5 Bd7 13.b3 and then 13...Rfb8!? looked interesting or even 13...Rfe8 (to defend the bishop, which is useful vs Ba3 ideas).

In any case I noticed that Mark Hebden has several times recently played the line 12.Nbd2 Be6!? 13.d5 Bd7 14.b3 as black which reaches the 12.d5 variation a whole tempo down.

He seems to like continuing 14...g6 15.Nf1 Nh5 since with this move over 16.Bh6 Ng7 is not so big a deal. And with white playing 15.Nf1 to release the Bc1 then c3-c4 ideas are less likely to be good.

Real life has kept me too busy from looking into this deeper but I don't see 12.d5 as a reason to avoid 11...Qc7 at the moment.

(p.s. I'm interested in correspondence games for the theoretical points but am exclusively an OTB player)
  
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brabo
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #9 - 03/24/17 at 09:37:21
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ako wrote on 03/24/17 at 08:32:42:
Pantu wrote on 03/02/17 at 14:31:44:
I've recently became interested in this variation from black's point of view:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7



I dislike 12.d5 from blacks point of view. White scores there very well.

True however you need to make a clear distinction between correspondence and otb. The most recent scores in correspondence were catastrophic while in otb black still has decent results.
In 2012 I wrote an article on my blog about the weak 12...c4 see http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/09/de-spaanse-doorschuifvariant.html
In 2015 I touched upon the mainline with 12...Bd7. I played a very nice draw with black against a former Russian champion. Anyway I clearly note there are problems for black see http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2015/10/to-disarm.html
Very recently I started to look at 12...Nd7. There is almost 0 theory of it and is very closely related to the 11...Nd7 12.d5 systems.

I play with both colors the Spanish Chigorin with 11...Qc7 for 20 years already see for 2 examples with me playing white : http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2014/03/camouflage.html
and
http://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-expert.html
I don't know any good books or analysis about this opening except what I made myself over the years. Anyway I notice at 2300 fide that what I know is sufficient to play a decent standard game.
  
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Bibs
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #8 - 03/24/17 at 09:31:22
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@Ako
Perhaps you could take the time to explain why...?
This looks a potentially good sharing, thinking and learning opportunity.
  
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #7 - 03/24/17 at 08:32:42
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Pantu wrote on 03/02/17 at 14:31:44:
I've recently became interested in this variation from black's point of view:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7



I dislike 12.d5 from blacks point of view. White scores there very well.
  

1.Nf3! - beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #6 - 03/23/17 at 16:21:51
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Yes, chronological order is the only way for me to really make sense of these things--particularly in the absence of a coach or good book to help fill in the gaps.

  
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #5 - 03/23/17 at 00:08:00
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One presumes for chronological reasons. Yes?
Perhaps to try to see the development of understanding. Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that.
  
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #4 - 03/22/17 at 20:10:51
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LeeRoth wrote on 03/22/17 at 13:39:15:
I think annotated GM games are the way to go. If you study Keres, Fischer, and Karpov in roughly that order, you can't go too far wrong.


Why this order in particular? Just a bit curious.
  
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #3 - 03/22/17 at 13:39:15
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I think annotated GM games are the way to go.  If you study Keres, Fischer, and Karpov in roughly that order, you can't go too far wrong.   

  
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #2 - 03/14/17 at 20:31:57
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I decided database + engine is the way to go.  Anyway, the league season is over so plenty of time for study now...
  
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Re: [C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
Reply #1 - 03/12/17 at 23:17:51
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You do appear to have hit upon the main sources (at least the ones I'm aware of). A google search turns up a book by Bikhovsky from 1983 - perhaps this is relevant regarding strategic understanding of the variations, although admittedly I know nothing about it.

Presumably of some value would also by White repertoire books (.e.g. Emms' Easy Guide, Khalifman, etc.)

  
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[C97-99] Resources for Chigorin with 11...Qc7
03/02/17 at 14:31:44
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I've recently became interested in this variation from black's point of view:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0-0 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7

...and was trying to investigate sources, particularly with 12.Nbd2 cxd4 variations.

New in Chess Yearbooks seem fascinated with 11...Nd7 but not Qc7, which means the most recent resources are:

1) Chesspublishing (of course) but I'm not a subscriber to 1.e4 e5 (at the moment...)
2) Marin's Spanish book, which I have, but that covers only 12.Nbd2 Nc6 and 12.Nbd2 Bd7 (latest NiC YB covers this based on So-Carlsen I think?)
3) Flear's Main Line Ruy Lopez book, which is older than some IMs these days Shocked but presumbly gives a good overview.
4) Whatever random overpriced Chessbase DVDs exist (I'm not really interested in this unless there is a particularly good one I don't know)

So are there any other resources (even older but good ones?), or is it just time to grab a Chesspub subscription, database and engine and work on my own?  I'm willing to investigate some old books by e.g. Keres, Geller etc if there is a particular recommendation.
  
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