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Normal Topic Retreat / Brooklyn Variatoin 2... Ng8!? sound? (Read 868 times)
Bonsai
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Re: Retreat / Brooklyn Variatoin 2... Ng8!? sound?
Reply #7 - 04/20/17 at 10:16:51
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Looking at the Chessbase App, 2...Ng8 certainly scores less well (37% of the points for black) than 2...Nd5 (45% of the points for black). Somehow 3.d4 d5 does score best on the next move, but as pointed out by others, I am pretty suspcious about that (it seems to me like the analogy to it being a Caro Kann advance a tempo down is accurate). 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 is played a lot and looks murky to me with no direct tactical refutation, but I am pretty convinced that white is a bit better. Hey, at least white may somewhat (debatably) "weaken" himself by playing 4...Bg4 5.h3 Bh5 6.g4 Bg6, but objectively it seems to me like lots of moves might be problematic for black here (e.g. 7.Bc4, or 7.Nc3 with the idea h4 etc.).

As black I might be even more worried about 4. f4 - certainly 4.f4 dxe5 5.fxe5 c5 6.d5 gives a scary center that it seems he can maintain. Perhaps the answer is to keep things unresolved in the center - e.g. with 4...g6, but I am not too keen on e.g. 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.Nc3, which seems like a Modern Defence gone wrong (tempos lost on Ng8-f6-g8, bishop on g7, no d5, yet, so that white may be able to push his kingside pawns quickly), not sure whether it matters if you start with 4...Nh6, if you play ...g6 later, anyway.

Anyway, I guess you get the idea that I don't like 2...Ng8 much, but that's just my opinion and if you can make it work for you with the psychological factors counter-balancing the downsides of the position, it certainly has a huge surprise factor and would quite possibly make me overconfident as white.
  
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Sima_Shi
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Re: Retreat / Brooklyn Variatoin 2... Ng8!? sound?
Reply #6 - 04/20/17 at 04:43:10
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I'm not sure, either Bg4 or c5 or g6 or maybe Nc6?
I don't know what is best, as mentioned I can't find much theory on it at all, this is why I came to this forum to ask about its validity. Smiley
  
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mn
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Re: Retreat / Brooklyn Variatoin 2... Ng8!? sound?
Reply #5 - 04/17/17 at 21:18:12
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True, c4 or Bc4 don't come with tempo, but I'm not sure tempi are appropriate justification when you've just played ...Ng8-f6-g8. Anyway, we could discuss general points all day, but with regard to specifics, what would you like to play after 2...Ng8 3 d4 d6 4 Nf3 - ?
  
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Sima_Shi
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Re: Retreat / Brooklyn Variatoin 2... Ng8!? sound?
Reply #4 - 04/16/17 at 20:12:36
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I think 2... Ng8 is nothing like any of the mainlines honeslty as the knight does not end up on d5 or b6 but rather e7 or h6 most of the time, the retreat also implies moves such as c4 and Bc4 don't come with tempo.
  
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mn
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Re: Retreat / Brooklyn Variatoin 2... Ng8!? sound?
Reply #3 - 04/16/17 at 19:37:43
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Sure, you could play 2...Ng8 and 3...d6 just to play something different - but at some point you have to ask yourself "Why is this not just a worse version of one of the Alekhine Main Lines?"
  
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Sima_Shi
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Re: Retreat / Brooklyn Variatoin 2... Ng8!? sound?
Reply #2 - 04/16/17 at 19:15:43
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I certainly think that any variation with 3... d5 must be better for white and I think what is worse is that it's not very attractive for black to play unless he likes the french.

In most games black (and myself) opts for the combative 3... d6, which is what has been playd by Carlsen, Petrosian and Flohr which is somewhat encouraging and I think this is the most Alekhine like move.

  
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MartinC
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Re: Retreat / Brooklyn Variatoin 2... Ng8!? sound?
Reply #1 - 04/16/17 at 16:39:02
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Shaw is rather dismissive of it in his quality chess white repetoire book. Concretely 3 d4 d5 4 c4 +/= and 3 .. d6 4 Nf3 Bg4 5 h3 Bh5 6 g4 Bg6 7 e6 +/=.

I'd be a bit sceptical of it on general grounds too - a big portion of the original idea was to get a 'good' French. Well, consider how productive the advance caro has turned out to be for white in recent years!
  
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Retreat / Brooklyn Variatoin 2... Ng8!? sound?
04/16/17 at 12:45:12
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I have been looking to pick up the Alekhine defence as my main defence against 1. e4 for some time now.
Black seems to find the most trouble in the  modern lines with 4. Nf3 where various attempts have been made to cling on for dear life make a dynamically interesting game but they all seem to fair fairly well for white.
The most famous attempts are:
4... Bg4 Old mainline
4... g6 Fianchetto Varation
4... exd5 (usually followed by c6 but also g6)
4... Nb6 Schmids variation.

I was looking at ways to deal with the modern and found that blacks second move 2... Ng8 is apparently a viable alternative to 2... Nd5, for instance wikipedia quotes:

"Although Black might be said to be giving odds of three moves, White only has a small advantage according to theory.[21]"

Where source 21 says and is the following:
"Most opening treatises do not mention this line. According to Nunn's Chess Openings, White gets a slight advantage after 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.h3. John Nunn, Graham Burgess, John Emms, and Joe Gallagher, Nunn's Chess Openings, Everyman Publishers, 1999, p. 129 n. 30. ISBN 1-85744-221-0."

I couldn't find much else regarding it, most just seem to laugh at it. In my own games I had good results with it but they were all short time control games.
I can only find around 250 games with this line, but it has been played by Magnus and Petrosian.

So has there been any updates to this consencus?
Is it fine for black to play?
  
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