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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis (Read 12491 times)
Stigma
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #63 - 11/26/17 at 21:25:49
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What is Sokolov's Nimzo-Indian move order to reach this line?

On first glance it is a bit surprising if this is nothing at all for White, since he gets all his pieces out in one move without being forced to put any of them on obviously suboptimal squares.
  

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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #62 - 11/26/17 at 21:02:04
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Re the IQP, Ivan Sokolov in his 4. e3 Nimzo book thought that the position after  1.  d4 d5 2.  c4 e6 3.  Nc3 Nf6 4.  Bg5 dxc4 5.  e3 c5 6.  Bxc4 cxd4 7.  exd4 Be7 8.  Nf3 O-O 9.  O-O Nc6 "does not promise White anything special."  His main line involved 10. a3 a6 (I'm aware of old stuff considering the approach with ...b6 as leading to +=), and ended up with "a double-edged position." 

Ostensibly it's a case of White being slightly disadvantaged by having Bg5 in (not being able to hold the bishop back, as he can in e.g. the Nimzo move-order Sokolov was considering).
  
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mn
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #61 - 11/26/17 at 20:46:38
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Regarding the IQP line, I was thinking in terms of the Nimzo-Indian; it's essentially a Karpov Variation where instead of ...b6 Black has gone for ...Nc6 and ...Be7. This is solid enough, mind you, but seemed to me a little less challenging than the ususal stuff Black would play in that line.

Dreev is an excellent endorsement of course, but I was thinking more in terms of something I'd (or the prospective Vienna player, for that matter) be personally happy to play, rather than objective quality. It is stylistically rather far removed from the Vienna IMO.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #60 - 11/26/17 at 20:32:56
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Stigma wrote on 11/26/17 at 13:19:48:
The context is I already play the Nimzo-Indian now and then, but I don't have anything good against 3.Nf3. The Vienna, the Ragozin or 4...a6 could fill that hole...


If you enjoy the Black side of the Exchange QGD and decide to play the Vienna, then 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxc4!?  seems logical.  If you choose to play the Ragozin, then I'd strongly consider 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4!? in that position.

Anyway, we're getting pretty far from discussing Ntirlis' book, so maybe this should be moved to another thread.
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #59 - 11/26/17 at 20:17:47
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mn wrote on 11/26/17 at 19:45:46:
I'd considered this 4...dxc4 line at one point, but I was a bit put off by the fact that 5 e3 c5 6 Bxc4 etc. seems to be a pleasant version of an IQP for White (relative to what he normally gets).


Does it?  I'm no expert in this line, but


Seems to lead to the same position as this line of the Caro-Kann:


On the bright side you avoid the dangerous 7.d5 line of the Caro-Kann, but the downside is that you can't play the  7.Bxc4 h6 line, either.  But Dreev has seemed happy to play this way for Black quite a bit, even against the world elites.

It seems like 4...dxc4!? is a viable idea, and one that I've been interested in lately.
  
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mn
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #58 - 11/26/17 at 19:45:46
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I'd considered this 4...dxc4 line at one point, but I was a bit put off by the fact that 5 e3 c5 6 Bxc4 etc. seems to be a pleasant version of an IQP for White (relative to what he normally gets).
  
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Stigma
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #57 - 11/26/17 at 17:09:43
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TonyRo wrote on 11/26/17 at 16:42:46:
I have been playing 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxc4 for a long time and quite like it. I can't count how many games I've won with 5.e4 c5 6.e5? cxd4! 7.exf6 gxf6! etc, for instance 8.Bh4 Nc6!? 9.Ne4 Bb4+-+. But if you're planning on playing 4...a6!? there's a nice bonus as well that 4...dxc4 5.Nf3 a6! transposes to a promising line there too.

That's encouraging! I thought 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxc4 5.Nf3 would be heading for the Vienna, but if Black can (or even should) avoid that, it keeps the choice of main line against 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 wide open.

Edit: 4.Bg5 dxc4 5.e4 c5 6.Nf3 is still a Vienna though, isn't it?
Edit 2: OK, maybe Black can do better than transposing with 6...cxd4 7.Nxd4 Bb4 here, for instance 7...Bc5 or 7...Qb6.

An aside: I was completely unaware of 4...a6 until the new Junior world champion beat me with it in blitz a couple of years ago. That guy got good fast...
« Last Edit: 11/26/17 at 19:35:03 by Stigma »  

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TonyRo
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #56 - 11/26/17 at 16:42:46
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I have been playing 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxc4 for a long time and quite like it. I can't count how many games I've won with 5.e4 c5 6.e5? cxd4! 7.exf6 gxf6! etc, for instance 8.Bh4 Nc6!? 9.Ne4 Bb4+-+. But if you're planning on playing 4...a6!? there's a nice bonus as well that 4...dxc4 5.Nf3 a6! transposes to a promising line there too.

A side note - I can't find anything wrong with 4...a6!? but I hate that the main line and the most principled idea is 5.cxd5...
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #55 - 11/26/17 at 13:19:48
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Thanks everybody for your comments.

I will look into both the Dutch-Peruvian gambit and ErictheRed's 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxc4 5.e3 c5, which I wasn't aware of.

I can understand it looks strange that I don't want to follow Kramnik  Smiley
The context is I already play the Nimzo-Indian now and then, but I don't have anything good against 3.Nf3. The Vienna, the Ragozin or 4...a6 could fill that hole. And if I can solve this 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 problem, they could even enable me to mix it up and switch between allowing the Nimzo and the Exchange QGD (I already have some interest in the ...Nh5 lines I believe Ntirlis recommends after I've read about them in Lars Bo Hansen's books and banged my head against them with White).

I dislike the idea of adopting an entire repertoire book – where's the creativity and individuality in that? Still, I just might end up dropping the Vienna/Ragozin and just following Ntirlis all the way. Anyone who does so should be aware of this useful option of switching between allowing the Nimzo and the Exchange QGD, to make preparation a bit harder for opponents.
  

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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #54 - 11/26/17 at 09:30:02
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I'm reminded of a CBM article from circa 10 months ago to the effect that after 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Bg5 Ne4 "Black still has some problems to solve."
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #53 - 11/26/17 at 06:19:26
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@Stigma, possibly I am misunderstanding ...... but trying to understand as I have also been interested in trying to develop a repertoire based on Ragozin and Vienna.

Ntirlis recommends in Ch 1,
1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 Be7 5 e3 Nbd7
but I suppose you think 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 Be7 5 Nf3 transposes into QGD. If so, then Ntirlis does not suggest any alternatives.
But he suggests Kramnik's variation with 5...Nbd7. I think he is basing his repertoire on this move, ...Nbd7. Perhaps Kramnik's positional play is not to your liking??

Re 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 Bg5, he suggests 3...Nbd7 (!) but he did mention 3...Ne4 (!?) and recommends Avrukh in GM 11, says B gets good chances but requires theory and prefers 3...Nbd7 as it solid and transposes into the repertoire.
  

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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #52 - 11/26/17 at 05:43:49
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If you want something daring try 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 c5 5.cxd5 cxd4, the Dutch-Peruvian Gambit.  It’s not considered all that good, but I know an FM who plays it from time-to-time and does pretty well, especially against lower-rated players.
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #51 - 11/25/17 at 17:48:55
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You could consider 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxc4, which has been played by some strong players and has obvious similarities with the Vienna.  After 5.e3, 5...c5 is the most straightforward attempt to equalize. 
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #50 - 11/25/17 at 03:29:37
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3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 is a problem for such a repertoire, yeah. Through that move order you could always try something like the cambridge springs, though
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #49 - 11/25/17 at 02:19:48
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Thanks for the detailed reply, emary!

emary wrote on 11/25/17 at 01:53:08:
Ragozin via 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 ?

Pert: Playing the Ragozin
gives a complete repertoire against 1.d4 2.(3.)c4 based on the Ragozin and avoiding the Nimzo-Indian.
A crucial Line is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4! 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bf4 Ne7! 6.Bd3 Bf5 which is analyzed in the book.
[...]

Maybe I didn't explain this well. Let me try again: I like Ntirlis' lines against the Exchange variation (I think), but I don't want to play the QGD main lines with 4.Nf3 Be7; I believe (rightly or wrongly) they are a bit too tame for my taste. So I want to combine 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 a la Ntirlis with something else, like the Ragozin 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Bb4 (or the Vienna 4...dxc4, or 4...a6, which I don't know a name for).

But it seems like the relatively rare 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 is a problem for this kind of combination. I was wondering if anyone has a solution to that.

So it seems like a lot of Ntirlis' d-pawn specials stuff is useful even with a "Nimzo-Indian" 1...Nf6/2...e6 move order (probably the most common way to use the Ragozin or the Vienna in a repertoire). Interesting that he doesn't recommend 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Ne4, which has been considered the big problem with this move order for White. Maybe what he gives for Black is just as good.
  

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