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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis (Read 19839 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #80 - 12/20/17 at 17:34:16
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ReneDescartes wrote on 12/20/17 at 17:08:08:
So here is my line--not Ntirlis': 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7!? (4. Bb4=) 5.e3 O-O 6.Nbd2 Nbd7 (6...b6 and 7...c5 =) 7.Rc1 c5 =.


That (with 7. Rc1 c5 leading to equality) was also a main line in ECO (2004), with the cited games unsurprisingly including one by Hebden and one by Capablanca.
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #79 - 12/20/17 at 17:08:08
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Palliser recommend this in his Play 1.d4!, but only as an equal, anti-theoretical response to attempts to reach a normal Vienna or Ragozin. It's interesting that you played it against ...Be7.

This line is not covered in Ntirlis' book, although his move order against the Torre attack 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 allows White to transpose into it with 4.c4. But he doesn't mention this possibility.

To me it seems that, since White voluntarily gives up pressure on d5, one might well ask, "What is Bg5 then for?"  In many lines of the Queen's Gambit, the ...c5 break is not good because of the pressure on d5: the break leaves d5 either hanging or prone to become isolated without good piece play. But here Black can just go ahead with ...c5 after a little preparation with ...O-O and either b6 or ...Nbd7 and be immediately equal--not even forced to go for an isolated pawn or hanging pawns if he doesn't want them (though these too are probably fine here).

So here is a small Ntirlis-friendly repertoire I constructed after a little research: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7!? (4. Bb4! is probably even better if you know the main lines of the Ragozin--White has already lost the chance to enter its popular sidelines with Qb3 or Qa5.) 5.e3 O-O 6.Nbd2 (if White instead plays Nc3 at any reasonable point he will transpose into Ntirlis) 6...Nbd7 ( 6...b6 and 7...c5 = may be even better, resembling a Tartakower rather than Ntirlis' Classical QGD) 7.Rc1 c5 = (7...h6 8.Bh4 c5= might be even better if you don't mind dealing with the harmless 8.Bf4 and Bxf6).
« Last Edit: 12/20/17 at 19:02:53 by ReneDescartes »  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #78 - 12/20/17 at 16:34:39
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Again I don't have Ntirlis' book yet, but I have to say that I find this question regarding 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 extremely surprising.  This isn't some crazy, tricky move order, unless Black happens to be a Semi-Slav player and would rather not face 4...c6 5.e3, with a Cambridge Springs.  It's fairly common for White.

Surely Ntirlis gave some small amount of guidance regarding move order here?  And what is Black worried about after either 4...Be7 or 4...Nbd7?  The only reasonalbe way that White can avoid a transposition back into repertoire lines (I think) would be to play 5.e3 and 6.Nbd2.  Sure it's playable (some strong GMs have played it), but surely not a huge deal?

It sounds as though, perhaps, Ntirlis overlooked these Nb1-d2 systems, which is perhaps slightly regrettable (a page or less might have sufficed to just give some guidance to the reader) but completely understandable.  I can't remember another book ever covering them.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #77 - 12/20/17 at 16:26:25
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Stigma wrote on 12/20/17 at 11:33:46:
In one of my earliest attempts at creating an opening repertoire as a junior, I did exactly this. I was always happy to see Black set up a typical Semi-Slav or QGD with ...c6 and ...Nbd7, when I would invariably put my knight on d2. This was based on studying the games of Mark Hebden, who used to play like this.


A player I recall as having a penchant for Nbd2 is Capablanca.
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #76 - 12/20/17 at 16:20:38
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doefmat wrote on 12/19/17 at 18:23:31:
Anyone know what the best move order is in the following line for this repertoire?

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5

Should I play Be7 or Nbd7 here for reaching our repertoire lines?
This sort of question comes up in every repertoire. Our opponent plays a different move order, and we must choose whether to try to transpose back to our usual line, or adopt a completely different line. My preference is to carefully prepare a different line. Our opponent may be happy that they have "move-ordered" us, but the careful preparation part means that theoretically we are doing even better than in our usual line.


ReneDescartes wrote on 12/19/17 at 20:13:40:
If you intend to transpose, I don't think it matters, because you will soon play both moves ...

Otherwise, either move will transpose almost all the time. White, without good reason, will probably not put his knight on d2 instead of c3. That would be out of book for you, but weaker than Nc3.
I agree with ReneDescartes. (I also agree with the parts he wrote that I did not quote.) But if white plays Nbd2, I think the Lasker Defense is more effective than usual. So my vote is for 4...Be7.
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #75 - 12/20/17 at 11:33:46
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ReneDescartes wrote on 12/19/17 at 20:13:40:
White, without good reason, will probably not put his knight on d2 instead of c3. That would be out of book for you, but weaker than Nc3.

In one of my earliest attempts at creating an opening repertoire as a junior, I did exactly this. I was always happy to see Black set up a typical Semi-Slav or QGD with ...c6 and ...Nbd7, when I would invariably put my knight on d2. This was based on studying the games of Mark Hebden, who used to play like this.

Of course White shouldn't get an edge with Nbd2, but it's not entirely toothless either. In particular, taking on c4 (a typical freeing move for Black) is often bad, since White will recapture with the knight and have full control of the e5 square.
  

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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #74 - 12/20/17 at 08:28:50
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doefmat wrote on 12/19/17 at 18:23:31:
Anyone know what the best move order is in the following line for this repertoire?

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5

Should I play Be7 or Nbd7 here for reaching our repertoire lines?


The most logical move (at least for me) is to play 4...Bb4+ (as a Ragozin player myself maybe it's more natural to me than for a strict QGD player). If White plays 5.Nc3 to cover the check (the best move) you are in a pure Ragozin. If not, 5.Bd2 is answered by 5...Be7 and you are back in your territory (White will spend another tempo moving his bishop from d2 sooner or later), and 5.Nbd2 can be met by 5...dxc4.

I think in that move order, Nbd7 is more natural to me if you don't want to play the Ragozin. You are safe in case of Bxf6 and there is no way to punish this (no e4, no Nxd5...). But, as Rene and Eric pointed before, usually it will transpose to the same. You play Be7 next move (if White don't get crazy) and the game moves on to known QGD waters.

Salut,
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #73 - 12/19/17 at 20:13:40
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If you intend to transpose, I don't think it matters, because you will soon play both moves: exchanging on f6 is a bad idea for White and I bet you'll never see it. But if he does it, you might want to have played 4...Nd7 first to get a more familiar position.

If White plays the line you gave, you could also play 4...h6 immediately and then if 5.Bh4, the bishop can't help on d2 anymore, so 5...Bb4+ gains bite.

Otherwise, either move will transpose almost all the time. White, without good reason, will probably not put his knight on d2 instead of c3. That would be out of book for you, but weaker than Nc3.
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #72 - 12/19/17 at 20:07:02
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doefmat wrote on 12/19/17 at 18:23:31:
Anyone know what the best move order is in the following line for this repertoire?

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5

Should I play Be7 or Nbd7 here for reaching our repertoire lines?


Is that move order not covered in the book...? 

I finally ordered a copy myself, I was waiting for some Amazon gift card money before buying it, but it hasn't arrived yet.
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #71 - 12/19/17 at 18:23:31
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Anyone know what the best move order is in the following line for this repertoire?

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5

Should I play Be7 or Nbd7 here for reaching our repertoire lines?
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #70 - 11/30/17 at 15:03:34
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I have this and also the one about the French. It's a mix of sensations. I am reading a book which teaches the principles of the opening at a very basic level but at the same time feeling that the ideas, and plans are proved and used at maximum level, I am confident that my options following their recommendations are the better ones in the positions.

Very good way of presenting the openings. Thx, Nikos.
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #69 - 11/30/17 at 10:18:05
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So far this book is really great! I like the introduction chapters very much and now understand the plans in this opening much better. I hope this guy is going to write more books. A 1.e4 repertoire book based on the Ruy Lopez with an early d3 would be nice. Tongue
  
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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #68 - 11/26/17 at 22:26:33
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A good idea with a separate thread for this 4...dxc4 discussion, mn. Perhaps a helpful moderator will move the relevant posts over there?

mn wrote on 11/26/17 at 22:01:48:

  

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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #67 - 11/26/17 at 22:08:52
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mn wrote on 11/26/17 at 21:34:00:
Probably 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 0-0 5 Bd3 d5 6 Nf3 c5 7 0-0 dxc4 8 Bxc4 cxd4 9 exd4 Nc6 10 Bg5 Be7


And he gives only one sentence to this on page 331, if I haven't missed something.
  

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Re: Playing 1.d4 d5 A Classical Repertoire, Ntirlis
Reply #66 - 11/26/17 at 22:01:48
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