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Normal Topic Samisch vs Philidor (Read 367 times)
MNb
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Re: Samisch vs Philidor
Reply #5 - 04/20/17 at 20:28:47
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I see. That means you have to decide immediately, because in the Old-Indian 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3 Nbd7 4.e4 e5 White sometimes wants to play Bd3.
I'd say it's a matter of taste whether you play 3.f3 Nbd7 4.Be3 e5 5.d5 Be7 6.c4 or 5.Nge2 Be7 6.Nbc3.
  

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Re: Samisch vs Philidor
Reply #4 - 04/20/17 at 14:03:32
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MNb wrote on 04/20/17 at 13:01:57:
befuddled wrote on 04/20/17 at 08:22:34:
Hi,

I like to play Nf3 and Bc4 lines vs the Philidor but the Samisch King's Indian lines vs the Pirc and Modern. So there are some tricky move orders which get me out of book.

Black can play 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.f3 Nbd7 with the idea ...e5 and ...Be7. Also there is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nd7.

So my question is : Is the Samisch setup any good against the Philidor? What are the plans since the normal h4-h5xg6 is off the cards?



It's far from always advisable to close the centre with d4-d5. Quite often opening the d-file with dxe5 benefits White while ...exd4 far from always benefits Black (mainly when ...d5 is effective).

Obviously you can't play this against the Phildor Proper as after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 White doesn't get to play f2-f3 anymore. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 you will only rarely meet 2...d6 but 3.Nge2 and 4.d4 may be an option if you don't want to play the King's Gambit 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3.
So you don't really need to take up this pawn storm plan.


I don't mind playing main lines against the Philidor proper but because I play 3.f3 against the Pirc move order 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.f3 Nbd7 I kind of am committed to this pawn storm.
  
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MNb
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Re: Samisch vs Philidor
Reply #3 - 04/20/17 at 13:01:57
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befuddled wrote on 04/20/17 at 08:22:34:
Hi,

I like to play Nf3 and Bc4 lines vs the Philidor but the Samisch King's Indian lines vs the Pirc and Modern. So there are some tricky move orders which get me out of book.

Black can play 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.f3 Nbd7 with the idea ...e5 and ...Be7. Also there is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nd7.

So my question is : Is the Samisch setup any good against the Philidor? What are the plans since the normal h4-h5xg6 is off the cards?


Actually it's closer to the English Attack in the Open Sicilian, though there are some similarities with the Argentinean Attack in the Pirc as well. It's playable, probably equal, but also positionally very unbalanced. That will often result in hair raising tactical complications.
There is only one plan: to play g5-g6 and rip Black's kingside apart.
I'd advise to delay castling queenside if Black responds with ...c6, b5 and Qa5. It seems important to be able to play Ng1-e2-c1 (evt. to b3).
Pay special attention to your king's bishop. Just like in the Argentinean Attack the crucial question is if White can make good use of this piece. If yes the attack gains lots of power. Somewhat paradoxically this means it can stay on f1 for a while.
It's far from always advisable to close the centre with d4-d5. Quite often opening the d-file with dxe5 benefits White while ...exd4 far from always benefits Black (mainly when ...d5 is effective).

Obviously you can't play this against the Phildor Proper as after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 White doesn't get to play f2-f3 anymore. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 you will only rarely meet 2...d6 but 3.Nge2 and 4.d4 may be an option if you don't want to play the King's Gambit 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3.

At the other hand 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 and 5.Bc4 is just a Philidor (The name Black Lion is nothing but propaganda to make a variation look more than it actually is). After 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nd7 I don't see anything against 4.Nf3 (intending e5 5.Bc4) as g6 5.Bc4 Bg7? 6.Bxf7+ (6.e5 isn't half bad either) Kxf7 7.Ng5+ Kg8 8.Ne6 Qe8 9.Nxc7 Qd8 10.Nxa8 Ne8 (or White will play 11.e5) 11.Bg5 is a disaster for Black.
So you don't really need to take up this pawn storm plan.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Samisch vs Philidor
Reply #2 - 04/20/17 at 11:00:04
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Actually the plan with Nc3 Be3 g4 h4 looks interesting thanks!
  
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Re: Samisch vs Philidor
Reply #1 - 04/20/17 at 10:36:16
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I think it would be strategically closer to a King's indian Saemisch because I think you have to play c4 in this case. Or maybe without c4 and Be3 Qd2 Nc3 and trying to close the center and playing in opposite castle style with g4 h4 or castle kingside with tension in the center or center closed wuth play on the Queen side but for this last plan I would prefer with c4. Just my 2 cent I am not an expert of this.
  
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Samisch vs Philidor
04/20/17 at 08:22:34
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Hi,

I like to play Nf3 and Bc4 lines vs the Philidor but the Samisch King's Indian lines vs the Pirc and Modern. So there are some tricky move orders which get me out of book.

Black can play 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.f3 Nbd7 with the idea ...e5 and ...Be7. Also there is 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nd7.

So my question is : Is the Samisch setup any good against the Philidor? What are the plans since the normal h4-h5xg6 is off the cards?
  
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