Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Is this forum dying? (Read 7183 times)
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Online


USCF National Master

Posts: 2141
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #131 - yesterday at 17:48:47
Post Tools
I don't think that we have a lot of "engine warriors," I personally meant more that since people have engines at their disposal at home, they're less inclined to start a thread when they can 1) switch on their own engines, and 2) think that many other people are just going to switch on their own engines when they respond to a thread.  I don't think that we need "engine warriors" for strong engines to have discouraged discussion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CarriedbyGg
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 70
Joined: 02/06/15
Gender: Male
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #130 - yesterday at 12:02:51
Post Tools
I would love to talk about some lines in the book, but as you may see from reading this thread, I was not happy the way it went.
But OK - how to talk about something that apparently nobody else has or wants to talk about?

A different thing is the Chigorin thread.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10112
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #129 - yesterday at 10:56:19
Post Tools
I'm calling bull. This thread for instance

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1497181073/0

doesn't contain any analysis. No engine warrior in sight.
And there are many more threads like that one.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CanadianClub
Senior Member
****
Offline


Greetings from Catalonia!

Posts: 278
Joined: 11/11/12
Gender: Male
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #128 - yesterday at 09:06:58
Post Tools
Try to analyze a random position with a titled player (IM / GM) or with a top engine.

  • Who is going to put the best moves?
  • In what case are you going to understand more?


Stockfish is not going to explain anything. Some variations are self-explanatory but others don't. A human analyst will explain why a move is dubious (and even if at the final of the variation there is a tactical option that makes Stockfish discard the variation), you will understand and learn a lot more. Stockfish puts in you in the right direction of finding the real truth. But I am not searching the real truth, but to improve my game (from a practical point of view).

Salut,
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nickajack
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Yabba Dabba Doo!

Posts: 13
Location: USA
Joined: 02/21/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #127 - yesterday at 01:48:40
Post Tools
barnaby wrote on 07/18/17 at 19:22:37:
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the talking about how or why it is made.


And, if you don't eat right you could suffer indigestion...  Huh

All I'm saying is that a possible cure for the engine variation dumpers would be to request *some* verbal explanations. Of course, excessive explanations with no concrete analysis is not desirable at all.

A good chess book is one that explains some the thinking and plans behind the moves. I don't mean explanations expressed in an annoying, cloyingly basic way, but on a higher level. Chess engines can't really do that.

A few years ago, a friend of mine (a class player) had trouble facing the Exchange French while playing Black and I offered to help, even though I'm not a big time French player. With the help of the database, I suggested a plan based on Bd6 and Ne7, aiming for imbalances and more ambitious play instead of playing the standard symmetric Nf6 lines. I put together a basic repertoire for him, with some minimal wordage and mostly lines, but also warning against some traps involving Bxh7 after Black's Bg4.

My stuff was adequate, but then after a little while I got a hold of Uhlmann's book on the French and what a delight it was reading it. A great balance between variations and spelled-out plans, but I was most pleasantly surprised to see Uhlmann playing the line with Bd6/Ne7.

Today's chess computers are stronger than Uhlmann but can't  do a good job of distilling info, let alone explain plans well and  reveal the deeper ideas behind the moves, and can't even do that at my level, much less a GM's.

We need a balanced approach and we're poorer for it if we don't stop to try to explain at least to ourselves what we're trying to accomplish when playing chess moves.
  

Dubious, therefore playable Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
barnaby
Senior Member
****
Offline


The night is dark and
full of terrors.

Posts: 322
Joined: 01/09/12
Gender: Female
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #126 - 07/18/17 at 19:22:37
Post Tools
The irony here is that the explanations of why moves are good and are the ones that should be played can really only be accurately expressed and shown to be 'true' by offering another set of moves to show the resulting positions. 

The proof of something in chess is always moves and positions!  It is its own language with no direct translation.  Like higher math in that way... verbal explanations cannot explain why the cosine of an angle is what it is.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the talking about how or why it is made.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nickajack
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Yabba Dabba Doo!

Posts: 13
Location: USA
Joined: 02/21/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #125 - 07/18/17 at 19:12:21
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 07/18/17 at 04:17:18:
I think that the balance of analysis and whatnot is fine; if someone wants an explanation of an idea, they can ask.  I think that we just all haven't been posting and sharing as much for the reasons mentioned, and we haven't done a great job of welcoming newcomers that are ready to contribute meaningfully (of course there have been some). 


I'm only suggesting that a way to deter dumping of dry computer analysis by some posters would be to ask them to provide some ideas as well. When that's not forthcoming, the embarrassment could keep them from continuing the practice.

(Not sure how much of a problem this has been lately.)
  

Dubious, therefore playable Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Online


USCF National Master

Posts: 2141
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #124 - 07/18/17 at 04:17:18
Post Tools
I think that the balance of analysis and whatnot is fine; if someone wants an explanation of an idea, they can ask.  I think that we just all haven't been posting and sharing as much for the reasons mentioned, and we haven't done a great job of welcoming newcomers that are ready to contribute meaningfully (of course there have been some).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 2516
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #123 - 07/18/17 at 03:13:18
Post Tools
Nickajack wrote on 07/18/17 at 01:59:51:
CanadianClub wrote on 07/15/17 at 19:04:45:
Discuss the middlegame plans out of the openings is the key


Well, that is also a potential problem for the engine warriors, since those same engines are not good at all at explaining the plans, as they only give lines upon lines of analysis.

Maybe we should all frown upon the mere offering of analysis without explanations, and that will weed out the 'engine warrior' types.

Grin

But there's no universal view of how much explanation is wanted or needed. What seems blindingly obvious to you might need lots of explanation to me, and vice versa. Overexplained analysis can be just as annoying to read as underexplained analysis...

I honestly think the balance between variations and explanation in the forum is fine. If anything, more concrete analysis (using both engines and human brains!) would be great, since general considerations and the best laid plans can be ruined by one strong tactical move. But I can't really demand more analysis from others; I should start by contributing more of it myself first.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nickajack
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Yabba Dabba Doo!

Posts: 13
Location: USA
Joined: 02/21/17
Gender: Male
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #122 - 07/18/17 at 01:59:51
Post Tools
CanadianClub wrote on 07/15/17 at 19:04:45:
Discuss the middlegame plans out of the openings is the key


Well, that is also a potential problem for the engine warriors, since those same engines are not good at all at explaining the plans, as they only give lines upon lines of analysis.

Maybe we should all frown upon the mere offering of analysis without explanations, and that will weed out the 'engine warrior' types.

Grin
  

Dubious, therefore playable Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GMTonyKosten
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline


Mr Dynamic?

Posts: 2888
Location: Clermont-Ferrand
Joined: 12/19/02
Gender: Male
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #121 - 07/17/17 at 11:30:39
Post Tools
Göran wrote on 07/07/17 at 23:27:44:
If the Generals are in right order (still feel uncomfortable) then I think the last general should change pleces with Other.

I agree, but I am interested in others' opinions. Maybe I should just return to the previous order?
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
CanadianClub
Senior Member
****
Offline


Greetings from Catalonia!

Posts: 278
Joined: 11/11/12
Gender: Male
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #120 - 07/15/17 at 19:04:45
Post Tools
Chess is a practical game and this has not changed. Maybe in the Winawer (a line I play) people is able to find information (because of engines, some books or whatever) how to play out to move 18. But finally it's a game of chess and at my level (1800 fide) you win or lose because of how do solve practical problems OTB. At any level I suppose.

Openings put you in the right direction. Discuss the middlegame plans out of the openings is the key. And what I ideally would like to find and discuss in a opening internet forum like this. Some points a little beyond the opening.

I am in a position of learning more than teaching (I am very bad) but it's an exercise everybody would have to try to do.

Maybe my hopes are too difficult to get real  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
barnaby
Senior Member
****
Offline


The night is dark and
full of terrors.

Posts: 322
Joined: 01/09/12
Gender: Female
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #119 - 07/15/17 at 18:34:19
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 07/15/17 at 06:51:20:
barnaby wrote on 07/14/17 at 16:35:49:
ErictheRed wrote on 07/14/17 at 00:58:39:
  .... why start a thread when you think that people will only reply with their engine's output?


The crux of the matter.


Which is unfortunate, because to me, improvement at chess and winning games by "thinking like a human" has never been easier.  It seems that so many people are slaves to their engines and forget that chess is a game of ideas, where each side sets problems for the other to solve.  The successful player poses difficult problems for his opponent while successfully solving those that his opponent sets for him, regardless of whether an engine says +0.45 or -0.06 or whatever in a given opening position.



If it was scientifically possible to agree more than 100% I would.

There have been many instances in the past in which I have posted pragmatic lines in various openings only to have the thread grind to a halt once best play from the engine was introduced.

One thing I learned is that this site seem (?) to cater (?) to a lot of correspondence players of which use an engine during actual play) and these types of players are not going to eschew their engine-assisted analysis or slum in a pragmatic otb line that offers chances due to complications that are difficult for a human to navigate.


So, while I agree both philosophically and empirically with your statement I am more persuaded by the idea that the engine genie is not going back into the bottle and as such have pretty much stopped posting any theory related threads (here or elsewhere) because of such experiences of having the engine brigade take over the process.

I miss the local five & dime, landlines, the neighborhood bowling alley and coffee that costs 25 cents a cup and none of them are coming back.

The internets and engines have changed chess in ways that are not so easy to dial back, and they have even more changed how we talk about it, both here online and in real world situations.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1280
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #118 - 07/15/17 at 15:16:35
Post Tools
Well said.  When I started playing chess, the books said that the Sicilian and Kings Indian were "unclear."  Now the Engine tells me they are +0.34 or something.  Who really cares about that?  OTB, both sides have every chance to win or lose.




  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nocteus
Junior Member
**
Offline


'Help your pieces, they
will help you.' Morphy

Posts: 79
Joined: 04/29/11
Re: Is this forum dying?
Reply #117 - 07/15/17 at 09:23:26
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 07/15/17 at 06:51:20:
barnaby wrote on 07/14/17 at 16:35:49:
ErictheRed wrote on 07/14/17 at 00:58:39:
  .... why start a thread when you think that people will only reply with their engine's output?


The crux of the matter.


Which is unfortunate, because to me, improvement at chess and winning games by "thinking like a human" has never been easier.  It seems that so many people are slaves to their engines and forget that chess is a game of ideas, where each side sets problems for the other to solve.  The successful player poses difficult problems for his opponent while successfully solving those that his opponent sets for him, regardless of whether an engine says +0.45 or -0.06 or whatever in a given opening position.


+2.00 Cool
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo