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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Elshad system (Read 10512 times)
grandpatzer
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #24 - 06/15/18 at 11:06:20
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Not doubt a relatively strong player can do fairly well with it. I don't know of course if you played "Elshad" or someone else... Would you imagine Carlsen or Nakamura playing bullet chess with the Elshad?  Smiley

By the way, If I remember well, in the book the author wrote that he is writing another from White's point of view... let's see what he comes up with (and how much it takes!)
  
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Monocle
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #23 - 06/09/18 at 19:18:58
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Recently on Lichess I came across a 2200 rated player who seemed to play d6,c6,Nd7,h6,g5 in that order as black against pretty much anything, and appeared to be doing fairly well with it.  Now I know where it came from.  I have to say, I can't believe that it should work.
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #22 - 11/20/17 at 00:11:03
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grandpatzer wrote on 09/12/17 at 08:47:55:
From the book's excerpt I understand that Elshad is a first name... Anyone knows what Elshad's actual surname is?


According to what i heard on Igor Nemtsev's Youtube channel, his surname is Mamedov (stress on "e"); thus his full name is Elshad Mamedov. He is Russian speaking and Russian citizen, but not ethnic Russian. He is Talysh by origin (Talysh are an Iranian ethnic group) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talysh_people
  
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grandpatzer
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #21 - 09/12/17 at 15:16:53
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So how about that post? I am sure it's the same "Elshad" as the Elshad of the Black System... Should we take it all as a fake or with a grain of salt as some sort of a commercial escamotage?  Shocked
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #20 - 09/12/17 at 14:18:57
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Elshad might be an online alias. Or it might be simply a marketing gimmick. Look at that blog post Stefan linked in #8:
  • It is titled "The Persian Opening", but Elshad is supposedly Russian.
  • The player name is given as "Elshad", the opponents' names appear to be last names, but of course could also be aliases.
  • The annotations refer to "my debut", "my knights", etc.
  
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grandpatzer
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #19 - 09/12/17 at 08:47:55
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From the book's excerpt I understand that Elshad is a first name... Anyone knows what Elshad's actual surname is?
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #18 - 07/09/17 at 18:08:49
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 06/13/17 at 23:02:25:
ReneDescartes wrote on 06/12/17 at 16:59:41:
Here's a variation. After 1.d4 c6 2.c4 d5 3.Nc3 Nd7 4.e4 h6 5.f4 g5 6.fxg5 Bg7 7.Nf3 Nf8 8.Be2 hxg5! 9.Bxg5 Ne6 10.Be3 Qb6(?!), which Nemtsev describes as one of his main lines, he gives 10.Rb1 for White. This is exactly one of those pointless or unenergetic moves supplied for the opponent in cheap opening monographs that Nunn warns about .

What move does Nemtsev neglect to mention, a move obvious in this position (see diagram) where White's b-pawn is hit and where Black's stated intention is to contest the dark squares? (Hint: it's a standard developing move that further clears the back rank, effectively unpins the d4-pawn, and is thematic against a wide variety of Black king's fianchetto openings).

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11.Qd2, of course, after which Black's best is 11...Nf6 (11...Bh6 12.O-O-O and White's position is absolutely classical, two tempi up in development with Black's kingside gone). 12.d5 Nc5 (forced); but then 13.Na5 hits both the queen and the knight pinned to it. After Black withdraws with 13...Qc7, White doubles Black's pawns and diverts a center pawn to the flank with 14.Nxc5 dxc5. White keeps his large advantage with normal moves such as 15. Bd3 in a position that is sharp primarily because Black's kingside is gone.

This is not some computer improvement--it's what exactly the stuffy correct opponent Nemtsev describes (i.e. me) would play as a reflex. What good is the time spent memorizing his opening analysis beyond this point, or for that matter after some White improvements earlier in the line?

This book isn't doing its readers any favors.

Thanks for showing this sample line. Your proposed 11.Qd2 is strong. Black should have better included 10...Nf6, e.g. 11.h3 Qb6. In that case the reply 12.Qd2? would run into 12...Ng4 13.Bg1 Bh6, and even the best line (according to the engine) 12.0-0 Qxb2 13.Rc1 Nh5 14.Rf2 Qa3 would pose practical problems. How relevant is that? Not so much, I fear, as 9. Nxg5! would have been more precise. Therefore Black should have considered 6...hxg5 (when White cannot take back with the knight) 7.Bxg5 Bg7 8.Nf3 Ngf6, intending Nf8-e6.

One of the points of the Elshad System is, apparently, to undermine the broad white center with a Ne6, a motif that resonates with me, as it resembles the Nd6 in the Vulture. Smiley After 1.d4 c6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3, there is a plausible alternative: 3...Na6!? (instead of Nd7) 4.e4 h6 5.f4 g5 6.fxg5 hxg5 7.Bxg5 Nc7, or perhaps 6...Bg7 7.Nf3 Bg4. Black's strategy would be very similar to Elshad's, with a knight heading in many lines to e6. It isn't obvious to me why the manoeuvre Nd7-f8 should be superior to Na6-c7, in my opinion the option Bc8-g4 can be useful.

Of course White could just choose another set-up without f2-f4. If there was a "moral obligation" to occupy the center with f2-f4, I'd rather play 1...c6, 2...Na6, 3...Nc7, 4...g6, 5...d5, in the spirit of the De Bruycker Defence. No need to gambit a pawn.

[The original De Bruycker Defence is c6/Na6, with the intention to react with d6 & e5 against a c4/d4/e4 center, and with d5 against a d4/e4/f4 center. In this concrete case the open c-file may give White a plus, but it would be worth debating over the board.]

Studying irregular openings can inspire new ideas. Even the Elshad System...  Wink


When I was trying out this "system" in speed games it was sometimes advantageous to abandon the ...Nf8-e6 maneuver and instead play ...Nf8-g6.  Having said that, ...Na6-c7 (c5) and then possibly to e6 seems like it should be a better option.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #17 - 06/15/17 at 21:57:45
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IsaVulpes wrote on 06/13/17 at 01:15:35:
kylemeister wrote on 06/10/17 at 06:50:16:
Trees are going to die for this?

This might be the best book review I've ever read. Thank you!


I give it Honorable Mention to Tony Miles' famous "Utter crap."
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #16 - 06/13/17 at 23:02:25
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ReneDescartes wrote on 06/12/17 at 16:59:41:
Here's a variation. After 1.d4 c6 2.c4 d5 3.Nc3 Nd7 4.e4 h6 5.f4 g5 6.fxg5 Bg7 7.Nf3 Nf8 8.Be2 hxg5! 9.Bxg5 Ne6 10.Be3 Qb6(?!), which Nemtsev describes as one of his main lines, he gives 10.Rb1 for White. This is exactly one of those pointless or unenergetic moves supplied for the opponent in cheap opening monographs that Nunn warns about .

What move does Nemtsev neglect to mention, a move obvious in this position (see diagram) where White's b-pawn is hit and where Black's stated intention is to contest the dark squares? (Hint: it's a standard developing move that further clears the back rank, effectively unpins the d4-pawn, and is thematic against a wide variety of Black king's fianchetto openings).

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

11.Qd2, of course, after which Black's best is 11...Nf6 (11...Bh6 12.O-O-O and White's position is absolutely classical, two tempi up in development with Black's kingside gone). 12.d5 Nc5 (forced); but then 13.Na5 hits both the queen and the knight pinned to it. After Black withdraws with 13...Qc7, White doubles Black's pawns and diverts a center pawn to the flank with 14.Nxc5 dxc5. White keeps his large advantage with normal moves such as 15. Bd3 in a position that is sharp primarily because Black's kingside is gone.

This is not some computer improvement--it's what exactly the stuffy correct opponent Nemtsev describes (i.e. me) would play as a reflex. What good is the time spent memorizing his opening analysis beyond this point, or for that matter after some White improvements earlier in the line?

This book isn't doing its readers any favors.

Thanks for showing this sample line. Your proposed 11.Qd2 is strong. Black should have better included 10...Nf6, e.g. 11.h3 Qb6. In that case the reply 12.Qd2? would run into 12...Ng4 13.Bg1 Bh6, and even the best line (according to the engine) 12.0-0 Qxb2 13.Rc1 Nh5 14.Rf2 Qa3 would pose practical problems. How relevant is that? Not so much, I fear, as 9. Nxg5! would have been more precise. Therefore Black should have considered 6...hxg5 (when White cannot take back with the knight) 7.Bxg5 Bg7 8.Nf3 Ngf6, intending Nf8-e6.

One of the points of the Elshad System is, apparently, to undermine the broad white center with a Ne6, a motif that resonates with me, as it resembles the Nd6 in the Vulture. Smiley After 1.d4 c6 2.c4 d6 3.Nc3, there is a plausible alternative: 3...Na6!? (instead of Nd7) 4.e4 h6 5.f4 g5 6.fxg5 hxg5 7.Bxg5 Nc7, or perhaps 6...Bg7 7.Nf3 Bg4. Black's strategy would be very similar to Elshad's, with a knight heading in many lines to e6. It isn't obvious to me why the manoeuvre Nd7-f8 should be superior to Na6-c7, in my opinion the option Bc8-g4 can be useful.

Of course White could just choose another set-up without f2-f4. If there was a "moral obligation" to occupy the center with f2-f4, I'd rather play 1...c6, 2...Na6, 3...Nc7, 4...g6, 5...d5, in the spirit of the De Bruycker Defence. No need to gambit a pawn.

[The original De Bruycker Defence is c6/Na6, with the intention to react with d6 & e5 against a c4/d4/e4 center, and with d5 against a d4/e4/f4 center. In this concrete case the open c-file may give White a plus, but it would be worth debating over the board.]

Studying irregular openings can inspire new ideas. Even the Elshad System...  Wink
« Last Edit: 06/14/17 at 09:17:58 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #15 - 06/13/17 at 01:15:35
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kylemeister wrote on 06/10/17 at 06:50:16:
Trees are going to die for this?

This might be the best book review I've ever read. Thank you!
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #14 - 06/13/17 at 00:28:58
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Why is Mongoose Press agreeing to publish this? Surely it only hurts their reputation in the long run.
  
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #13 - 06/12/17 at 19:35:43
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Yeah, 11. Qd2 is "the move my hand would want to play."

"Faced with the novel challenges of The Elshad System, your opponent will have to rely on his own resources instead of cranking out deep theory. Avoid those symmetrical drawing variations from unambitious opponents playing White. Play the Elshad and experience once again what it’s like to play fresh, fighting chess!"

Hilarious.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #12 - 06/12/17 at 16:59:41
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Here's a variation. After 1.d4 c6 2.c4 d5 3.Nc3 Nd7 4.e4 h6 5.f4 g5 6.fxg5 Bg7 7.Nf3 Nf8 8.Be2 hxg5! 9.Bxg5 Ne6 10.Be3 Qb6(?!), which Nemtsev describes as one of his main lines, he gives 10.Rb1 for White. This is exactly one of those pointless or unenergetic moves supplied for the opponent in cheap opening monographs that Nunn warns about .

What move does Nemtsev neglect to mention, a move obvious in this position (see diagram) where White's b-pawn is hit and where Black's stated intention is to contest the dark squares? (Hint: it's a standard developing move that further clears the back rank, effectively unpins the d4-pawn, and is thematic against a wide variety of Black king's fianchetto openings).

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

11.Qd2, of course, after which Black's best is 11...Nf6 (11...Bh6 12.O-O-O and White's position is absolutely classical, two tempi up in development with Black's kingside gone). 12.d5 Nc5 (forced); but then 13.Na5 hits both the queen and the knight pinned to it. After Black withdraws with 13...Qc7, White doubles Black's pawns and diverts a center pawn to the flank with 14.Nxc5 dxc5. White keeps his large advantage with normal moves such as 15. Bd3 in a position that is sharp primarily because Black's kingside is gone.

This is not some computer improvement--it's what exactly the stuffy correct opponent Nemtsev describes (i.e. me) would play as a reflex. What good is the time spent memorizing his opening analysis beyond this point, or for that matter after some White improvements earlier in the line?

This book isn't doing its readers any favors.
« Last Edit: 06/13/17 at 13:21:40 by ReneDescartes »  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #11 - 06/12/17 at 03:26:28
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Here's a quote showing the level of commentary:

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"...Qb6! Surprise! Turns out the knight wasn't threatened after all. A typical misconception by White in this opening."

In other words, this opening  is great if your opponent is rated 1100 or it's bullet.

But at least the author is honest about his intentions. Still, why not teach the 1100 players something better, like the Budapest or Benko or even the Geier or Hawk/Woozle?
« Last Edit: 06/12/17 at 17:25:47 by ReneDescartes »  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: The Elshad system
Reply #10 - 06/11/17 at 14:50:15
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Bibs wrote on 06/11/17 at 10:29:57:
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I downloaded a digital sample from Forward Chess.
Apologies.

Thanks for the clarification.

And perhaps I should make clear myself that this "Elshad Gambit" or whatever it is called does not look particularly interesting. So I can actually understand why this thread will probably "die". - I am not so sure about the original Elshad System with c3, Qa4 and g4.  Cheesy
  
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