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Normal Topic Non Pirc Move Ordering (Read 497 times)
huibui
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Re: Non Pirc Move Ordering
Reply #8 - 08/14/17 at 00:26:17
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Maybe after 2...c5 3.Ne2 Black can play a g6-setup and avoid capturing d4? If White pushes d5, we get a particular type of Benoni with White's knight blocking the bishop. Maybe it transposes to a Sämisch after a later f3? Though Black might try using the tempo gained by saving up on ...Nf6 by quickly playing on the queenside, or go for ...Ne7.

White can also avoid d5 for a bit, e.g. 3...g6 4.d4 Bg7 5.Nc3, trying to continue Be3. Then 5...Nf6 6.f3 0-0 7.Be3 Nc6 seems to finally transpose to a Sämisch line.

2.c4 is a very interesting move order, thanks for sharing it! White can try something similar in the Sicilian: 1.e4 c5 2.Ne2 d6 3.c4. However this Black can avoid by the clever 2...Nf6.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Non Pirc Move Ordering
Reply #7 - 08/13/17 at 03:02:40
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kylemeister wrote on 08/13/17 at 01:30:53:
Surely unsurprisingly, I've seen the "Double Botvinnik" given as leading to equality, e.g. by Carsten Hansen in his book on the Symmetrical English.

Yes, but the typical Pirc player is ready for an unbalanced fight and playing against White's pawn center, not this weird hyper-symmetry...

I have still scored surprisingly well the few times I have played into the Double Botvinnik (all as Black). Maybe it's a case of neither White nor Black really getting the kind of position they want, and whoever can control their frustration better wins...

For players looking for something more unbalanced without going into known KID or Modern lines, it will have to be 1.e4 d6 2.c4 c5. 3.Nf3 e5 is unbalanced enough; Black is quicker to get in ...f5 if he wants to. But after 3.Ne2!? White is threatening to play a Maroczy Bind or Hedgehog structure no matter how Black sets things up.

Compare this to the respectable Anti-Sicilian 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.f3!? with the same thematic idea: In the 1.e4 d6 2.c4 version White isn't even committed to f2-f3, so Black needs a good idea here if he wants to prevent White from reaching some main line he's happy with.
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Non Pirc Move Ordering
Reply #6 - 08/13/17 at 01:30:53
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Stigma wrote on 08/13/17 at 00:49:14:
Granted, there's a chance of getting a "Double Botvinnik" with both players setting up the same pawn structure (c5-d6-e5), but I'm unsure how to assess that. Probably it's objectively fine for Black, but it's a bit too closed for my taste, and nothing at all like the Pirc.


Surely unsurprisingly, I've seen the "Double Botvinnik" given as leading to equality, e.g. by Carsten Hansen in his book on the Symmetrical English.

(Incidentally Hansen has a forthcoming book The Full English Opening: Mastering the Fundamentals.  The Amazon blurb touts it as the first one-volume book that covers all variations.  I think not -- for one thing I recall a book like that by Bernard Cafferty from the 1970s.)

  
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Re: Non Pirc Move Ordering
Reply #5 - 08/13/17 at 00:49:14
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ham204 wrote on 08/12/17 at 23:50:01:
Yes, an early ...e5 would seem to do the trick and if White does not play d4 immediatley, then ...c5 would turn it into a reverse Botvinnik English  after ...g6

2...e5 does not do the trick for me. It's exactly the move White wants to see!

Most of the times I've had 1.e4 d6 2.c4 played against me, the White players were fans of the Botvinnik English (with pawns on c4 and e4 with g3/Bg2) and were trying to trick me into that - following Kosten's Dynamic English or Marin's 3-volume GM Repertoire. Both authors recommend going for the Botvinnik setup only when Black has committed to ...e5, but not against the Symmetrical English (...c5), where it's thought to be less testing.

Granted, there's a chance of getting a "Double Botvinnik" with both players setting up the same pawn structure (c5-d6-e5), but I'm unsure how to assess that. Probably it's objectively fine for Black, but it's a bit too closed for my taste, and nothing at all like the Pirc.

Frankly, 2.c4 is an annoying little move, and it doesn't help that virtually all authors of books on the Pirc ignore it completely!
  

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ham204
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Re: Non Pirc Move Ordering
Reply #4 - 08/12/17 at 23:50:01
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Yes, an early ...e5 would seem to do the trick and if White does not play d4 immediatley, then ...c5 would turn it into a reverse Botvinnik English  after ...g6
  
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Re: Non Pirc Move Ordering
Reply #3 - 08/12/17 at 18:14:05
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Surely the Sicilian approach with 2...c5 is not that scary, either, since White committed himself with 2.c4 already?  It's not as though you're going to be playing a main line Najdorf or Dragon with Black.

There is also 2...g6 and a transposition to a Modern instead of getting into a King's Indian.  Also on 2...Nf6 3.Nc3 Black can play again play 3...c5 or 3...e5, when you won't be in a King's Indian.  On 2...Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 you can play the Old Indian, or perhaps 4...Nc6 5.d4 Bg4, when that's not going to be a King's Indian, either. 

There seem to be many decent options to avoid a King's Indian transposition.
  
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Re: Non Pirc Move Ordering
Reply #2 - 08/12/17 at 17:51:17
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tp2205 wrote on 08/12/17 at 16:10:01:
[quote author=575E520D0F0B3F0 link=1502539287/0#0 date=1502539287]I would play 2 ... e5 and if White plays 3. d4 (otherwise Black can play c5) then exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5. Qd1 (5. Qc3 to stop g6 does not work because of d5)  g6 and Bg7 with a nice position for Black


I would note that putting the queen on d2 can transpose to a famous game Polugaevsky-Nezhmetdinov.
  
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Re: Non Pirc Move Ordering
Reply #1 - 08/12/17 at 16:10:01
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ham204 wrote on 08/12/17 at 13:01:27:
I find that, with increasing regularity, my 'Pirc' games are starting 1.e4 d6; 2.c4 Now I know that if I play ...c5 I'm entering Sicilian waters which are not familiar to me while 2...Nf6 lead to all sorts of Kings Indian formations. Any ideas how to tackle this sequence of moves before   I immerse myself in the KID manuals??


I would play 2 ... e5 and if White plays 3. d4 (otherwise Black can play c5) then exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5. Qd1 (5. Qc3 to stop g6 does not work because of d5)  g6 and Bg7 with a nice position for Black
  
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ham204
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Non Pirc Move Ordering
08/12/17 at 13:01:27
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I find that, with increasing regularity, my 'Pirc' games are starting 1.e4 d6; 2.c4 Now I know that if I play ...c5 I'm entering Sicilian waters which are not familiar to me while 2...Nf6 lead to all sorts of Kings Indian formations. Any ideas how to tackle this sequence of moves before   I immerse myself in the KID manuals??
  
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