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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rook endings, Mednis or Emms? (Read 2217 times)
passiffity
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #25 - 09/26/17 at 05:02:49
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Jupp53 wrote on 09/24/17 at 00:05:06:
What's really important:

If you've got the idea you should adapt the method to your personal way of learning and practicing.

Nothing of this is really new. Look at the recommendation of soviet chess trainers to have a notebook to fix your ideas. It is a "natural" way to order thoughts and with high probability you will do this fitting your style.

Yes.  Of course am only just beginning with this, but one thing have noticed right away is that as am more consciously verbalizing what I see as am analysing positions the language is more accessible and able to be formed into useful ideas worthy of noting as they present themselves through analysis. 

Have verbalized many times before while trying to understand positions and guess I've found it useful sometimes, but never really realized how potentially beneficial it could be to consistently use the technique whenever working at the board.

Am enthusiastic - even a bit excited - to see just how much this will aid my studies once delve deeper into the method as you describe it. 

Though they may not be new, I'm so thankful you thought to share these ideas here!  Believe this is going to be quite helpful in my efforts to better perceive, and enjoy chess.   

Cheers!

  
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Jupp53
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #24 - 09/24/17 at 00:05:06
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What's really important:

If you've got the idea you should adapt the method to your personal way of learning and practicing.

Nothing of this is really new. Look at the recommendation of soviet chess trainers to have a notebook to fix your ideas. It is a "natural" way to order thoughts and with high probability you will do this fitting your style.
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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passiffity
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #23 - 09/22/17 at 01:24:38
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@dfan, seems like Van Perlo's Endgame Tactics is something would enjoy and could possibly benefit a little from even while still working though Silman.    


@Jupp53, thank you very much for clarifying these ideas and the examples!   Believe was able to understand most everything, but true understanding will probably come only after having used these methods for awhile.  While feel like must have been doing a few of these things on some level the only one can say I've consciously and actively focused on is
"Second rule: Elaborate first yourself, then check, then make corrections."  Am looking forward to working these learning techniques into my chess studies as well as others.

Thanks again, hope you are feeling better soon!
  
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #22 - 09/20/17 at 22:27:55
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@ passiffity
Pardon me. As this is the rook endings sub-forum I wanted to take a rook ending and I have only finished the first round of pawn endings. An small infection made me sleep very much each day.
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First rule: Take your time for each position.
Second rule: Elaborate first yourself, then check, then make corrections.
Third rule: Build phrases, that help you find solutions in similar positions.

Why?
Rule 1 and 2 - Our mind keeps better what we worked about. Simple reading is fast forgetting.
Rule 2 - We have several channels for storing material. 75% till 80% use images. (I belong to the minority). Some use acoustical information, some kinesthetic information, some taste and smell. So it is useful to find your way of playing through the lines and using your personal repertoire of memorizing and understanding.
Rule 3 - We organize our knowledge by features and rules about it. If you follow the example, you will probably instantly see the point of verbalizing therefore. As I explain this for the first time this way I may go terribly wrong with this idea. So don't be shy with asking questions.

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*

Look at this position. Maybe you know it. Then work out the deciding line with white to move. Then build a phrase when it is won or lost.
Work out the second line with black to move. What makes the difference?

White to move:
1. Rg5 a4 2.Kg7 a3 3.Rg3 a2 4.Ra3 and wins.

My sentences: Rg5 cuts off the king from the pawn. So white can approach the king or attack the black pawn if it advances.

Black to move:
1. .. Kb5 2.Rg4 a4 3.Kg7 a3 4.Kf6 (4.Rg3 Kb4 =) a2 5.Rg1 Kb4 6.Ke5 Kb3 7.Kd4 Kb2=

My sentence: If the black king can protect the progressing pawn and is not disturbed by the white king this ends in a draw.

Then I build a spreadsheet with categories. These are:
- Rook against single pawn
- Active king
- Absperrung (verbal translation blockade - but "Blockade" means something else in german)

At the moment I try out working with a mind map too, ordering the categories to endings. This is experimental so I don't know if this works.
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Maybe it's too much adoo for the younger ones. As I'm in the 60th now I need more work about a position to really understand, what's going on.  Undecided

Edit: The features of the starting position here are rook against pawn. King far away.
  

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dfan
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #21 - 09/16/17 at 17:34:15
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When I suggested a browse through Averbakh or the like, I wasn't thinking that one would actually really learn any useful techniques from it; I just think it can be useful to skim a book just to see what the topics are.

I kind of feel like van Perlo deals with more typical situations than many theoretical endgame books! In a way this is true almost by definition since his positions come from actual games. But I do think the main benefit of it is for inspiration and entertainment.
  
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #20 - 09/16/17 at 02:37:14
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ReneDescartes wrote on 09/14/17 at 17:22:46:
I think you might have difficulty benefiting  from a quick reading of Averbach or of any technical endgame book. One function of Silman's Groucho-Marx-like writing style is to slow you down whether you like it or not. The difficulty is inherent in the subject matter.

You wouldn't recommend a quick reading of a book of difficult tactics problems, would you? That might work with strategic concepts, but not with intricate technical processes. It would be like doing a quick reading of a book on techniques of integration in calculus. I happen to like doing that sort of slow study, but many people don't. That's one reason it gives you such a big advantage if you know your stuff.

By the way, I think the Van Perlo is a little advanced--you might find some of the solutions hard to follow. Even more so the studies in Kasparyan--understanding the solutions (and learning from the mechanisms) requires painstaking work, let alone solving the studies.

Furthermore, these two books, beautiful as they are, don't deal with the most typical situations, unlike Silman, De la Villa, etc.


Good points.  Thanks!  Will most probably go with original thought of adding De la Villa and Averbach and work through them enough  to see how they might appropriately be added to study plan.  Know I want supplement Silman with something. 

Sounds like pretty much can't go wrong with Mednis PRE so will add this also.

These books should satisfy my hunger to study or just enjoy endgames for a long time with good practical benefits.  Perhaps somewhere down the road will try Hellsten's "Mastering Endgame Strategy" too, does sound quite interesting.

  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #19 - 09/14/17 at 17:22:46
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I think you might have difficulty benefiting  from a quick reading of Averbach or of any technical endgame book. One function of Silman's Groucho-Marx-like writing style is to slow you down whether you like it or not. The difficulty is inherent in the subject matter.

You wouldn't recommend a quick reading of a book of difficult tactics problems, would you? That might work with strategic concepts, but not with intricate technical processes. It would be like doing a quick reading of a book on techniques of integration in calculus. I happen to like doing that sort of slow study, but many people don't. That's one reason it gives you such a big advantage if you know your stuff.

By the way, I think the Van Perlo is a little advanced--you might find some of the solutions hard to follow. Even more so the studies in Kasparyan--understanding the solutions (and learning from the mechanisms) requires painstaking work, let alone solving the studies.

Furthermore, these two books, beautiful as they are, don't deal with the most typical situations, unlike Silman, De la Villa, etc.
  
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #18 - 09/14/17 at 01:23:21
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Jupp53 wrote on 09/13/17 at 16:02:26:
@passiffity

Give me some days to elaborate an example.

Sure, and thank you for taking the time to do so Jupp53.


Little update.  Have decided not to go through Seirawan's book and focus instead on Silman, and Capablanca's Best Chess Endings by Chernev since have already started on these two.  Would have liked to work through the Seirawan book but it was on loan from library and didn't like the idea of not being able to refer back to it if need be.  Once am through first reading of Silman, one chapter past my rating level will work through it again and begin a fairly quick read through of Chess Endings by Averbakh as dfan suggested.  Will be interesting to find out where there is to go after that.
  
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #17 - 09/13/17 at 16:02:26
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@passiffity

Give me some days to elaborate an example.
  

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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #16 - 09/12/17 at 03:40:55
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Thank you ReneDescartes and Jupp53, some interesting and encouraging points you both raise.

@Jupp53, could you possibly elaborate a little bit on this strategy of taking verbal notes?  It sounds like you have a good deal of experience, and this isn't something I would do naturally.

@dfan, yes, had thought to add a book on endgames for pleasure/entertainment but wasn't sure which of the three I knew about would be best at my level and or more useful overall. 

Of course Van Perlo's "Endgame Tactics" was one of three and I know it is highly praised.

"Pal Benko's Endgame Laboratory" don't know so much about other then was a fan of his Endgame Lab column in Chess Life magazine which believe the book is simply a compilation of these articles, so am guessing it might be a fairly mixed bag.

Kasparyan's "Domination in 2,545 Endgame Studies" sounds quite interesting and is also much delighted in but haven't any notion of it's difficulty in comparison to the others.



  
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #15 - 09/09/17 at 18:44:22
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When going through a data base of games starting historically, you will find a high rate of misplayed pawn endings. As this here is rook endings I add - If I were good at rook endings I'm sure to find the same. This stuff only looks simple.
  

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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #14 - 09/08/17 at 09:14:17
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Jupp53 wrote on 09/07/17 at 23:58:44:
winning by waiting for a wrong pawn move.

Reminds me of this game. In chess, even the simple stuff is difficult.

  
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #13 - 09/07/17 at 23:58:44
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Endings was something I went through as a child in the Mieses/Dufresne. The pawn endings made me win many points, because I experienced under 1800 many situations were my opponents simply blundered the game by a stupid pawn move.

The disadvantage was in the success. I simply waited for my opponents to blunder and they did so often, that I just had no real pain from the losses against the attacking players. I grew up exchanging queens, open a file, exchanging rooks and winning by waiting for a wrong pawn move. There weren't any trainers out there.

As a youth trainer and a professional psychologist I can tell you one main point for selecting the book or the books for your training: Take the one giving you the best impression of being fun! If it's fun you will come back. Chess is a hobby, so there will be breaks.

Additional hints:
- Take notes, v e r b a l  notes, to summuarize, what you learnt or knew. In adults minds this works better. Children beyond ten normally don't profit as much from this strategy.
- If you like to flip through different books, center your flipping around your notes. Organize the notes your personal way.
- My personal favorite of the four books you listed is De La Villa. Silman would be a killer of endgame studies for me. But that's a matter of taste. Averbakh would be the repetition and expansion of De La Villa for me and Mednis the test book on the road. Order the books in your personal way!
  

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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #12 - 09/06/17 at 14:33:45
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ReneDescartes wrote on 09/06/17 at 01:11:43:
For what it's worth, there are many who disagree with the idea that endgames are of only marginal use under 2000. To begin with, I would cite Capablanca, Tarrasch, and the Russian school.

As the first person to reply (with a bit of cold water) to the original post, let me emphasize that I agree that endgames are plenty useful under 2000. I just don't think that usual "devour the encyclopedia" method of studying endgames is a good way of going about it, which is why I recommend
  • Silman for the theoretical stuff (up to your rank or a little beyond)
  • Hellsten for strategy (I would not be scared off by the review on Amazon claiming that this is only for experts)
and I will add one more!
  • Van Perlo for entertainment, inspiration, and a survey of tactical themes
I think that this endgame library is sufficient all the way to 2000, if not beyond.

Of course, for anyone who derives pleasure from dutifully making their way through endgame textbooks, I wouldn't want to dissuade them. Anything that feeds your excitement about chess can't be too bad.
  
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Re: Rook endings, Mednis or Emms?
Reply #11 - 09/06/17 at 01:11:43
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For what it's worth, there are many who disagree with the idea that endgames are of only marginal use under 2000. To begin with, I would cite Capablanca, Tarrasch, and the Russian school.

In my experience, players who seldom reach endgames are caught in a vicious cycle of favoring sharp lines that do not reach endgames partly because they do not know much about endgames partly because they seldom reach endgames...

If you are open to the possibility of trading into decent endgames voluntarily, then that opportunity will come up constantly--as often as good attacking combinations. A good endgame player can even make it his primary repertoire choice to play, for example, the Ruy Lopez Exchange, absorbing Black's activity and pressing in the endgame.

It is perfectly possible for a player well under 2000 to develop the ability frequently to convert a one-pawn advantage against opponents of equal strength in minor-piece endgames once he is "tactically sound"---not hanging material to simple combinations--a level which Heisman, who knows a thing or two about weak players, places at around 1600 USCF.

But even before that point, endgame skill (I claim that technical skill will lead to strategic skill to a large degree) will often be useful. If that were not so, how could endgames skills be so useful in blitz, where there is no question of tactical soundness?

In fact, it will be harder to get to 1800 if you are relatively incompetent at even one major skill--attack, defense, endgames, openings, creating and exploiting pawn structure problems (this is so much of strategy, but largely dependent on endgame competence!), etc. Many players manage it; but their life is harder than it has to be, whether they know it or not. As a chess author I know said to me privately, "the more you fear a spot, the more the ball will find it."

I would go farther than that. Nigel Davies says that once a player (for example, an older player) nears his limit in calculation and visualization, he can still improve in the endgame, which Davies calls "the other big gun." I agree.
« Last Edit: 09/06/17 at 12:36:25 by ReneDescartes »  
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