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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Bayonet Ne8 (Read 1042 times)
proustiskeen
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #17 - 09/23/17 at 05:06:10
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[Event "BIH-chT 11th"]
[Site "Jahorina"]
[Date "2012.06.10"]
[Round "9.1"]
[White "Berkes, Ferenc"]
[Black "Popovic, Dusan"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "E97"]
[WhiteElo "2696"]
[BlackElo "2548"]
[PlyCount "73"]
[EventDate "2012.06.02"]
[EventType "team-tourn"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "BIH"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2012.11.22"]
[WhiteTeam "Sarajevo Bosna"]
[BlackTeam "Sarajevo Slavija"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "BIH"]
[BlackTeamCountry "BIH"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5
Ne7 9. Nd2 Ne8 10. b4 f5 11. c5 Nf6 12. a4 f4 13. Nc4 g5 14. Nb5 Ne8 15. Bg4
Ng6 16. Bxc8 Rxc8 17. Qg4 a6 18. cxd6 axb5 19. d7 Ra8 20. dxe8=Q Qxe8 21. Na5
b6 22. Nc6 bxa4 23. b5 h6 24. Bb2 Rf6 25. Ra2 Bf8 26. h4 a3 27. hxg5 Rxc6 28.
bxc6 axb2 29. Rxa8 Qxa8 30. Qe6+ Kh7 31. Qf7+ Bg7 32. d6 Qxc6 33. d7 Qc1 34.
d8=Q Qxf1+ 35. Kh2 Qh1+ 36. Kxh1 b1=Q+ 37. Kh2 1-0

  
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trw
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #16 - 09/23/17 at 02:36:16
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Anyone have access to F.Berkes-D.Popovic, Bosnian Team Championship 2012 1-0 ? I can't find this game. Collins mentions it but then doesn't give it.
  
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trw
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #15 - 09/23/17 at 02:28:18
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gillbod wrote on 09/05/17 at 21:01:54:
Fllg wrote on 09/03/17 at 08:09:06:
trw wrote on 09/03/17 at 01:30:06:
I just bought the Collins book. I don't see that he mentions 9. b4 anywhere and definitely not a single correspondence game let alone the line you are talking about. Am I missing something?


I donīt have the book myself and just relied on the other thread where itīs mentioned that against both the Bayonet 9.b4 and 9.Nd2 Collins recommends ...Ne8.

What else does Collins recommend against the Classical Variation if not the Mar del Plata? And if itīs 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 then I cannot imagine that 9.b4 isnīt covererd?!


It is covered in Game 12: Gelfand-Nakamura. Indeed, Collins suggests ...Ne8 against 9.Nd2 as well as 9.b4 and he claims the two ought to transpose (I think they should too, but I'm new to the KID still). The analysis of the correspondence game comes from the variations given in the notes to this game. Look at the subvariation at move 12 for the correspondence game.


Thank you.
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #14 - 09/05/17 at 21:01:54
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Fllg wrote on 09/03/17 at 08:09:06:
trw wrote on 09/03/17 at 01:30:06:
I just bought the Collins book. I don't see that he mentions 9. b4 anywhere and definitely not a single correspondence game let alone the line you are talking about. Am I missing something?


I donīt have the book myself and just relied on the other thread where itīs mentioned that against both the Bayonet 9.b4 and 9.Nd2 Collins recommends ...Ne8.

What else does Collins recommend against the Classical Variation if not the Mar del Plata? And if itīs 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 then I cannot imagine that 9.b4 isnīt covererd?!


It is covered in Game 12: Gelfand-Nakamura. Indeed, Collins suggests ...Ne8 against 9.Nd2 as well as 9.b4 and he claims the two ought to transpose (I think they should too, but I'm new to the KID still). The analysis of the correspondence game comes from the variations given in the notes to this game. Look at the subvariation at move 12 for the correspondence game.
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #13 - 09/04/17 at 04:54:28
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ArKheiN wrote on 09/03/17 at 20:14:45:
trw, in fact I don't think much about dvd in general when it's about serious analysis, simply because of the support, and I never buy them. I did an exception for that dvd just to see for the first time Ne8 being recommanded somewhere. I expected something deeper.



A pity. Would you mind sharing what he thinks the mainline is? I don't wish to waste my money if the dvd is not worth but curious what he is advocating.
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #12 - 09/03/17 at 20:14:45
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trw, in fact I don't think much about dvd in general when it's about serious analysis, simply because of the support, and I never buy them. I did an exception for that dvd just to see for the first time Ne8 being recommanded somewhere. I expected something deeper.
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #11 - 09/03/17 at 18:04:38
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trw wrote on 09/03/17 at 16:06:01:
He covers 9. Ne1 and 9. Nd2 but no 9. b4


This seems weird to me since Black should certainly know something about moves like 9.a4, 9.Bg5, 9.Kh1 etc. to play this line well.

Perhaps Collins reaches the Bayonet via the move order 9.Nd2 Ne8 10.b4?
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #10 - 09/03/17 at 16:06:01
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Fllg wrote on 09/03/17 at 08:09:06:
trw wrote on 09/03/17 at 01:30:06:
I just bought the Collins book. I don't see that he mentions 9. b4 anywhere and definitely not a single correspondence game let alone the line you are talking about. Am I missing something?


I donīt have the book myself and just relied on the other thread where itīs mentioned that against both the Bayonet 9.b4 and 9.Nd2 Collins recommends ...Ne8.

What else does Collins recommend against the Classical Variation if not the Mar del Plata? And if itīs 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 then I cannot imagine that 9.b4 isnīt covererd?!



He covers 9. Ne1 and 9. Nd2 but no 9. b4

mn wrote on 09/03/17 at 07:41:50:
Bologan suggests this line for Black in his newest KID DVD (and possibly also his new book?)


ArKheiN wrote on 09/03/17 at 09:02:15:
I have the Dvd from Bologan and indeed he offers Ne8 but then he continue in a rare way. Not very deep coverage and not too convincing, I don't even remember exactly from memory but it's still quite interesting. In his last book he goes for Nh5 only if I am right. I am pretty sure Anand knew well Ne8, the coverage was quite good for White un Opening for White according to Kramnik until Black's play has been well improved in the old early f3 mainline. You see Anand played a very delayed f3 vs Nakamura which is the modern and dangerous way of playing against Ne8 and then Nakamura plays the very rare, slow and provocative h6 to tell Anand he can now accept to play f3 where h5 will be necessary for Black, losing a whole tempo in the old Ne8 mainline. While I am pretty sure Nakamura knew the normal lines very well, I am sure he took a calculated risk when he did play h6 to lure Anand in a typical double edged King's Indian, underestimating his play. The middlegame was a great punishment from Anand until the blunder where the All-In bluff finally paid off.


In Bologan's first book 2009, he covers solely Nh5.
In Bologan's second book 2017, he covers Nh5, a5 and c6.

So I guess you don't think much of Bologan's DVD?

TN wrote on 09/03/17 at 02:02:59:
I don't have time to check it now, but I recall Kristian Szabo writing a CBM article on this in late 2013. Actually, many years ago I remember meeting 9...Nd7 with 10.Re1 f5 11.Ng5, when my opponent played 11...Nf6 and we transposed to the 9...Nh5 main line.  Grin That would not be so effective against 9...Ne8 though.



Great, thank you. Any idea which one?
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #9 - 09/03/17 at 09:02:15
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I have the Dvd from Bologan and indeed he offers Ne8 but then he continue in a rare way. Not very deep coverage and not too convincing, I don't even remember exactly from memory but it's still quite interesting. In his last book he goes for Nh5 only if I am right. I am pretty sure Anand knew well Ne8, the coverage was quite good for White un Opening for White according to Kramnik until Black's play has been well improved in the old early f3 mainline. You see Anand played a very delayed f3 vs Nakamura which is the modern and dangerous way of playing against Ne8 and then Nakamura plays the very rare, slow and provocative h6 to tell Anand he can now accept to play f3 where h5 will be necessary for Black, losing a whole tempo in the old Ne8 mainline. While I am pretty sure Nakamura knew the normal lines very well, I am sure he took a calculated risk when he did play h6 to lure Anand in a typical double edged King's Indian, underestimating his play. The middlegame was a great punishment from Anand until the blunder where the All-In bluff finally paid off.
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #8 - 09/03/17 at 08:09:06
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trw wrote on 09/03/17 at 01:30:06:
I just bought the Collins book. I don't see that he mentions 9. b4 anywhere and definitely not a single correspondence game let alone the line you are talking about. Am I missing something?


I donīt have the book myself and just relied on the other thread where itīs mentioned that against both the Bayonet 9.b4 and 9.Nd2 Collins recommends ...Ne8.

What else does Collins recommend against the Classical Variation if not the Mar del Plata? And if itīs 7...Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 then I cannot imagine that 9.b4 isnīt covererd?!
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #7 - 09/03/17 at 07:41:50
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Bologan suggests this line for Black in his newest KID DVD (and possibly also his new book?)
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #6 - 09/03/17 at 02:02:59
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I don't have time to check it now, but I recall Kristian Szabo writing a CBM article on this in late 2013. Actually, many years ago I remember meeting 9...Nd7 with 10.Re1 f5 11.Ng5, when my opponent played 11...Nf6 and we transposed to the 9...Nh5 main line.  Grin That would not be so effective against 9...Ne8 though.
  

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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #5 - 09/03/17 at 01:30:06
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ArKheiN wrote on 09/02/17 at 19:16:48:
Ne8 has been the mainline and the ols recommandations for White are just good for Black. But if White doesn't play an early f3, Black's life is difficult but quite playable to try an attack on White's kingside. See Anand-Nakamura some years ago when Anand got a decent version of that line and was clearly winning but still lost.



True the 2011 Anand-Nakamura game is fun. I was live both for them playing it and had a front row seat for their post mortem analysis with Malcolm Pein, Mickey, Short and others. Nevertheless, it is difficult to call Ne8 a mainline as Vishy himself said it was a new move to him. *TODAY* it is third choice after Nh5 (16,000 competitive games), a5 (5,300 games) and it clocks in at a mere 1,200. When Nakamura played it, I assure you, it was even more obscure. Kasparov is quoted from the LCC classic as having called the move a hideous mark on a beautiful opening.

Fllg wrote on 09/02/17 at 19:38:03:
This is suggested in the recent Move by Move book on the KID by Collins.

See http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1501173822 where the probably critical line of 9.b4 Ne8 is mentioned.



I just bought the Collins book. I don't see that he mentions 9. b4 anywhere and definitely not a single correspondence game let alone the line you are talking about. Am I missing something?
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #4 - 09/02/17 at 19:38:03
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This is suggested in the recent Move by Move book on the KID by Collins.

See http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1501173822 where the probably critical line of 9.b4 Ne8 is mentioned.
  
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Re: Bayonet Ne8
Reply #3 - 09/02/17 at 19:16:48
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Ne8 has been the mainline and the ols recommandations for White are just good for Black. But if White doesn't play an early f3, Black's life is difficult but quite playable to try an attack on White's kingside. See Anand-Nakamura some years ago when Anand got a decent version of that line and was clearly winning but still lost.
  
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