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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bronstein-Larsen (Read 1225 times)
MNb
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #32 - 09/16/17 at 22:40:25
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Viking wrote on 09/12/17 at 22:29:13:
If you go for 6.c3 Bf5 - make sure you are booked up for the dangerous 7.Ne2!?

As HgMan hasn't written anything about this yet I'm going to remind him. IM Merijn van Delft several years ago recommended the old main line with h4, Ng3 and Be2 - and only then initiate a pawn storm on the queen's wing (and decline that pawn on h5).
It seems interesting to me, because everyone playing ...gxf6 can be expected to be prepared for fianchetto setups.
  

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HgMan
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #31 - 09/16/17 at 22:23:09
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The nice thing about correspondence is you can trot out the same line in 4-6 games at a time without losing the "surprise value." The advantage is the opportunity to really work on a particular opening or two. Games are usually hidden until they are finished.

But it did get me wondering: I'll have to look, but do any of the books on pawns and pawn structures treat playing with doubled pawns as an advantage? Baburin?  Marovic?
  

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Keano
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #30 - 09/16/17 at 21:57:13
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Yes, I think the engines have a hard time getting past the structural "weakness" and underestimate the potential dynamism.

I am not a correspondence player, but for OTB play I think this is a useful line to have up your sleeve. Not to play every game probably.
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #29 - 09/16/17 at 13:17:32
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I think you're right. It seems to me that there are some general middlegame and endgame characteristics to a number of these positions that would reward greater familiarity. And are probably just enough to throw off the first player with less preparation. I would also note that engines seem to really like White in most lines. Disproportionately so. Which is especially nice for the correspondence player. It's nice to see that +1.02 drop to +0.35 over the course of a half-dozen natural moves. In correspondence chess, there's so much room for sub-optimal moves from White with that kind of mis-evaluation.
  

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Keano
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #28 - 09/15/17 at 23:10:27
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HgMan wrote on 09/15/17 at 00:29:43:
Botvinnik is usually a good model to follow.


Indeed. I have been looking at all these tries for Black against the dreaded g3 system. It seems to me that if you are playing the Bronstein-Larsen it is very much a matter of personal preference. The objective evaluation of all lines is slightly better for White but if Black is prepared and comes with some ideas I think he can cause problems. Even the old "bloodlust" variation as Silman called it where Black goes ....0-0-0 is not so simple if Black is armed with improvements.
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #27 - 09/15/17 at 00:29:43
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Botvinnik is usually a good model to follow.
  

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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #26 - 09/13/17 at 05:52:33
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Thanks. It was the second game that I had in mind.
I was only looking through my 30ish yeats old handwritten notes...
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #25 - 09/13/17 at 03:08:24
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Viking wrote on 09/12/17 at 22:29:13:
If you go for 6.c3 Bf5 - make sure you are booked up for the dangerous 7.Ne2!?

In general may a development to Bg7  be an interesting thought if you are looking for something "fresh". Reminds me of an old Botvinnik(?) game - although I am not able to find it right now Undecided


One of these perhaps? In fact, I'm inclined to retract my comments in the previous post about the bishops looking a little passive or stale.

Horberg-Botvinnik (Stockholm 1962)
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 de4 4. Ne4 Nf6 5. Nf6 gf6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. Bf4 Nd7 8. Nf3 e6 9. O-O Nb6 10. Bb3 Bg4 11. h3 Bh5 12. c4 Bg7 13. g4 Bg6 14. Re1 O-O 15. Kh2 a5 16. a4 f5 17. Qd2 fg4 18. hg4 c5 19. Bh6 cd4 20. Bg7 Kg7 21. Kg2 d3 22. g5 Nd7 23. Qf4 Rc8 24. Rad1 Nc5 25. Ba2 f6 26. Qg4 fg5 27. Ng5 Qf6 28. Ne6 Ne6 29. Re6 Qf2 30. Kh1 Rf4

Ciocaltea-Botvinnik (Hamburg 1965)
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 de4 4. Ne4 Nf6 5. Nf6 gf6 6. Be2 Bf5 7. Nf3 e6 8. O-O Bg7 9. Re1 O-O 10. Bf4 Qb6 11. Qc1 Nd7 12. a4 c5 13. Be3 Qc7 14. Bf4 Qa5 15. Bd2 Qc7 16. Bf4 Qa5 17. Bd2 Qd8 18. Bh6 Rc8 19. Bg7 Kg7 20. c3 Qc7 21. Qe3 Bg6 22. a5 cd4 23. Nd4 a6 24. f4 e5 25. fe5 fe5 26. Nf3 f5 27. Rad1 Rce8 28. g3 Re7 29. b4 f4 30. gf4 Rf4 31. Bf1 Nf6 32. h3 Bh5 33. Be2 Kh8 34. Kh1 Ne4 35. Kh2 Ref7 36. Rd5 Rf3 37. Bf3 Bf3 38. Qb6 Qb6 39. ab6 Nc3 40. Rde5 Bc6 41. Re7 Re7 42. Re7
  

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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #24 - 09/13/17 at 02:59:22
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I've been stubbornly mucking around with the following:

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nf6 5. Nxf6+ gxf6 6. c3 Bf5 7. Nf3 e6 8. g3 h5 9. Bg2 Be4 10. O‑O f5 11. Re1 Be7 12. h4 Nd7 13. Bh3 Bxf3 14. Qxf3 Nf6

Maybe better is to play for 14...c5. I don't love it for Black, who still has some work to do—not least: castling long. But I'm not sure I see what White has either.
Keano wrote on 09/12/17 at 21:57:52:
Also interesting and playable I think.

For correspondence though what about some return to sanity - the plan of ...Bg7 and ..0-0 is also quite solid I think:

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nf6 5. Nxf6+ gxf6 6. c3 Bf5 7. Nf3 e6 8.g3 Nd7 9. Bg2 Bg7 10. Nh4 Bg6 11. O-O O-O

Black is solid and can look for his chances when White pushes


This looks plausible, but stale. I'd like to think that Black can either liquidate to an endgame with the doubled pawns are actually useful—or exploit the lines against White's kingside to put the king under pressure.
  

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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #23 - 09/12/17 at 22:29:13
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If you go for 6.c3 Bf5 - make sure you are booked up for the dangerous 7.Ne2!?

In general may a development to Bg7  be an interesting thought if you are looking for something "fresh". Reminds me of an old Botvinnik(?) game - although I am not able to find it right now Undecided
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #22 - 09/12/17 at 21:59:39
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HgMan wrote on 09/12/17 at 03:34:06:
Keano wrote on 09/11/17 at 20:46:36:
Viking wrote on 09/11/17 at 20:23:57:
I agree - however 7.Bc4! is awkward for black.

6...Qd5 used to be "my" way to counter 6.c3! as black

I wish there was a completely sound response to c3 and I would return to the bronstein/larsen. Lots of good memories...


6.c3 h5 7.Bc4 Nd7 what is the idea for White - you want Qb3 to block in my bishop?


Doesn't 8.Nf3 work? Develop normally? 8...Nb6 9.Bb3 a5 10. a4 or 0-0 both look pretty straightforward. Black's h5 pawn looks a little silly at the moment—and it's going to take some time for Black to be able to mount much along the half-open g-file. Hard not to like White here.


9..a5 looks only weakening
Here I would assume black could try 9..Bg4 and say 10. h3 Bxf3 10. Qxf3 h4!? or e6 / Bd6 / h4 with an ok game
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #21 - 09/12/17 at 21:57:52
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HgMan wrote on 09/12/17 at 21:52:01:
Well, my primary interest is correspondence--avoiding scads of book theory, finding playable positions, and tricking the odd engine into some early misplaced evaluation. What do you think about 9...Qc4 in your line above?


Also interesting and playable I think.

For correspondence though what about some return to sanity - the plan of ...Bg7 and ..0-0 is also quite solid I think:

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nf6 5. Nxf6+ gxf6 6. c3 Bf5 7. Nf3 e6 8.g3 Nd7 9. Bg2 Bg7 10. Nh4 Bg6 11. O-O O-O

Black is solid and can look for his chances when White pushes
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #20 - 09/12/17 at 21:52:01
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Keano wrote on 09/12/17 at 20:12:41:
HgMan wrote on 09/12/17 at 16:09:31:
I think you're probably right. As Black, I remain interested in 6.c3 Bf5 7.Nf3 e6 8.g3 h5 9.Bg2 Be4 as perhaps the best h5 advance.


I am also coming to the conclusion the old 6...Bf5 is in fact best.

Currently looking at this endgame:
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nf6 5. Nxf6+ gxf6 6. c3 Bf5 7.Nf3 e6 8. g3 Qd5 9. Bg2 Qe4+ 10. Be3 Qc2 11. Nh4 Qxd1+ 12.
Rxd1 Bg4 13. f3 Bh5

Perhaps White is a bit better but it doesnt seem too much. Enough to handle in a blitz game anyway Smiley




Well, my primary interest is correspondence--avoiding scads of book theory, finding playable positions, and tricking the odd engine into some early misplaced evaluation. What do you think about 9...Qc4 in your line above?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #19 - 09/12/17 at 21:49:35
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Keano wrote on 09/11/17 at 20:46:36:
Viking wrote on 09/11/17 at 20:23:57:
I agree - however 7.Bc4! is awkward for black.

6...Qd5 used to be "my" way to counter 6.c3! as black

I wish there was a completely sound response to c3 and I would return to the bronstein/larsen. Lots of good memories...


6.c3 h5 7.Bc4 Nd7 what is the idea for White - you want Qb3 to block in my bishop?


Correct. Qb3 is the obvious threat. With the bishop blocked the black position is not very attractive.
  
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Re: Bronstein-Larsen
Reply #18 - 09/12/17 at 20:12:41
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HgMan wrote on 09/12/17 at 16:09:31:
I think you're probably right. As Black, I remain interested in 6.c3 Bf5 7.Nf3 e6 8.g3 h5 9.Bg2 Be4 as perhaps the best h5 advance.


I am also coming to the conclusion the old 6...Bf5 is in fact best.

Currently looking at this endgame:
1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nf6 5. Nxf6+ gxf6 6. c3 Bf5 7.Nf3 e6 8. g3 Qd5 9. Bg2 Qe4+ 10. Be3 Qc2 11. Nh4 Qxd1+ 12.
Rxd1 Bg4 13. f3 Bh5

Perhaps White is a bit better but it doesnt seem too much. Enough to handle in a blitz game anyway Smiley


  
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