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Normal Topic 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 dxc4!? (Read 3766 times)
kylemeister
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Re: 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 dxc4!?
Reply #4 - 12/04/17 at 17:30:00
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Regarding the third of mn's four things, Sokolov wrote that moves such as Re1 or Rc1 instead of a3 don't bring any advantage.  He has some experience with that.  1.  d4 d5 2.  c4 e6 3.  Nc3 Nf6 4.  Bg5 dxc4 5.  e3 c5 6.  Bxc4 cxd4 7.  exd4 Be7 8.  Nf3 O-O 9.  O-O Nc6 10. Re1 a6 11. Bb3 b5 12. d5 Nxd5 13. Bxd5 exd5 14. Qxd5 Qxd5 15. Nxd5 Bxg5 16. Nxg5 was once given as += by Anand, but Sokolov-Sadler was drawn in 20 moves and then Sokolov-Anand was drawn in 23.  (Those games involved two of the various possible QGA move orders.)
  
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MNb
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Re: 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 dxc4!?
Reply #3 - 12/04/17 at 14:49:36
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mn wrote on 12/03/17 at 21:56:50:
Sokolov doesn't think White has much here?

Another thing worth considering is that this is a line from the Panov Attack with an extra tempo for White: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.Bg5 e6 7.Nf3 Be7 8.Bd3 dxc4 9.Bxc4 O-O 10.O-O. Predictably this is more common than something like 7...dxc4 8.Bxc4 Be7 9.O-O O-O. GM Sokolov undertsands these things better than I do, but I still would be quite happy to have an extra move like 10.Rc1 or 10.Re1 - both are very common in such positions.

THe position after 4..dxc4 also can arise via the Pseudo-Tarrasch 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e3 cxd4 7.exd4 Nc6 8.Bc4 Be7 9.O-O O-O 10.Re1 Nf6 11.Bg5.

Another relevant transposition comes from the Morra Gambit Declined: 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 Nc6 6.Nf3 e6 7.Nc3 Qd8 8.Bc4 Nf6 9.O-O Be7 10.Bg5 O-O. So Black after 4...dxc4 should wonder if it's worth the effort to play this inferior defense (Black's 3d and 7th both are questionable).
  

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kylemeister
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Re: 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 dxc4!?
Reply #2 - 12/03/17 at 23:40:03
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Regarding the second thing, here's a curious-looking bit from old theory:  Filip in the first edition of ECO gave 11...Nd5 12. Bxd5 ed as leading to a clear advantage for White (citing a game Alatortsev-Kan), whereas he gave 10...Nd5 (instead of 10...a6) 11. Bxd5 ed as equal.
  
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mn
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Re: 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 dxc4!?
Reply #1 - 12/03/17 at 21:56:50
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Alright so hopefully I can try to start a discussion of the IQP line because I think this is the main argument against playing this way with Black;

5 e3 c5 6 Bxc4 cxd4 7 exd4 Be7 8 Nf3 0-0 9 0-0 Nc6

As kylemeister mentioned, Sokolov doesn't think White has much here, because he feels via the Nimzo move order White should hold back Bg5 for a bit. The line he gives is 10 a3 a6 11 Qd3 b5 12 Ba2 Bb7 13 Rfe1 Rc8 14 Rad1, and now he points out tha 14...Re8? is bad due to takes on f6 and d4-d5, while 14...b4 15 Na4 bxa3 16 bxa3 Qa5 17 Bxf6 gxf6! is unclear.

A few things perhaps worth considering:

- What about 13...h6 14 Bh4 Nh5!? - ?
- 11...Nd5 looks like it could be okay if a draw is alright (12 Bxd5 exd5)
- Can White benefit from delaying/excluding a2-a3 - ?
- Is there any independent significance to delaying ...Nc6 (e.g. 9...a6) - ?
  
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mn
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1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5 dxc4!?
11/26/17 at 21:51:13
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I've started a new thread to continue the (slightly off-topic) discussion on this line from the "Playing 1 d4 d5" thread.

TonyRo wrote on 11/26/17 at 16:42:46:
I have been playing 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxc4 for a long time and quite like it. I can't count how many games I've won with 5.e4 c5 6.e5? cxd4! 7.exf6 gxf6! etc, for instance 8.Bh4 Nc6!? 9.Ne4 Bb4+-+. But if you're planning on playing 4...a6!? there's a nice bonus as well that 4...dxc4 5.Nf3 a6! transposes to a promising line there too.



Stigma wrote on 11/26/17 at 17:09:43:
That's encouraging! I thought 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxc4 5.Nf3 would be heading for the Vienna, but if Black can (or even should) avoid that, it keeps the choice of main line against 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 wide open.

Edit: 4.Bg5 dxc4 5.e4 c5 6.Nf3 is still a Vienna though, isn't it?
Edit 2: OK, maybe Black can do better than transposing with 6...cxd4 7.Nxd4 Bb4 here, for instance 7...Bc5 or 7...Qb6.

An aside: I was completely unaware of 4...a6 until the new Junior world champion beat me with it in blitz a couple of years ago. That guy got good fast...



kylemeister wrote on 11/26/17 at 21:02:04:
Re the IQP, Ivan Sokolov in his 4. e3 Nimzo book thought that the position after  1.  d4 d5 2.  c4 e6 3.  Nc3 Nf6 4.  Bg5 dxc4 5.  e3 c5 6.  Bxc4 cxd4 7.  exd4 Be7 8.  Nf3 O-O 9.  O-O Nc6 "does not promise White anything special."  His main line involved 10. a3 a6 (I'm aware of old stuff considering the approach with ...b6 as leading to +=), and ended up with "a double-edged position." 

Ostensibly it's a case of White being slightly disadvantaged by having Bg5 in (not being able to hold the bishop back, as he can in e.g. the Nimzo move-order Sokolov was considering).

  
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