Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Stockfish dethroned (big time)?! (Read 9020 times)
IsaVulpes
Full Member
***
Offline


No.

Posts: 211
Joined: 12/09/07
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #53 - 04/17/18 at 20:05:26
Post Tools
https://lichess.org/blog/WtNG7CcAAFMTTHPj/gm-andrew-tang-vs-leela-chess-zero
GM Andrew Tang, better known as bulletmonster penguingm1, is going to play a showmatch against current Leela on April 22, 3 PM UTC.
She is currently estimated to be about 2500, but climbing rather fast - when I posted about her less than a month ago, she was still somewhere around 1800.

Meanwhile, Stockfish 9 won the TCEC Grand Finals with +20-2=78, arguably dominating Houdini 6 harder than SF8 got crushed by A0.

Computerchess sure shows no sign of stopping..
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


Long live the Nimzo Indian

Posts: 1531
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #52 - 04/06/18 at 07:51:49
Post Tools
gillbod wrote on 04/05/18 at 20:50:40:
Where is this '2000 times better hardware coming from?

The really heavy hardware was while training Alpha Zero, not while Alpha Zero was playing.


Sorry I missrembered. We actually dont know exactly what hardware Stockfish used, the paper only said the number of threads (64) and 1 GB hashtable. Still Alpha Zero had better hardware but not 2000 times better as I stated.

I am no expert but I read at some forum that a single TPU has the same theoretical power as 500 Haswell cores. I thought I used the same numbers as during training but in the match it used 4 TPUs. And 4 TPUs means the power of 2000 Haswell cores so that where I missrembered the numbers from.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
gillbod
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 96
Joined: 03/26/13
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #51 - 04/05/18 at 20:50:40
Post Tools
bragesjo wrote on 04/05/18 at 09:27:37:
The odd short time contol choosen cleary favors the engine with 2000 times better hardware.


Where is this '2000 times better hardware coming from?

The really heavy hardware was while training Alpha Zero, not while Alpha Zero was playing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IsaVulpes
Full Member
***
Offline


No.

Posts: 211
Joined: 12/09/07
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #50 - 04/05/18 at 10:40:23
Post Tools
Don't forget that just doing this a bit later would have generated tremendously different results -
The devbuild of SF9 is currently up +11-1=27 vs Houdini 6, incl. a few wins with Black and most notably a "double-win" (winning the same position with both colours).
https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tournaments/tcec-2018-superfinal/1/1/30

So yeah, overall this was mostly a proof-of-concept paired with an ad campaign. Of course an important proof, and I look forward to what Leela will produce in the future, but it's been rather thinly veiled that Google doesn't care about chess whatsoever and just wanted to score a nice headline in time for NIPS, and most likely consciously fiddled with the SF settings until they were to their liking.
Still doesn't matter too much to me - if A0 against "real" SF had gone even or potentially even lost, it would still just have been a question of more time (and/or better optimization for chess) until A0 has improved enough to 'really' beat Stockfish, so in the end it's more a bending of truth than a lie.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


Long live the Nimzo Indian

Posts: 1531
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #49 - 04/05/18 at 09:27:37
Post Tools
I agree thats it is a breakthrought in science meaning. It is a great archivment for AI develpment.

I am only wanted point out that it won over an old and crippled version  for Stockfish. The makers of Stockfish belives that Alpha Zero would probebly have won anyway but it would have been a much closer match.

With a correct hash table size + a hiegh number of threads that it is actually tested for and with a timecontrol it is design for Stockfish would have gained several 100 elo points in strengh. Even more with tablesbases and opening book. The odd short time contol choosen cleary favors the engine with 2000 times better hardware.



  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
tipau
Full Member
***
Offline


I Like ChessPublishing!

Posts: 155
Location: London, England
Joined: 01/25/08
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #48 - 04/04/18 at 18:53:08
Post Tools
I don't think any of those things make the match 'fixed'. They mean that Alpha Zero wasn't playing against the strongest possible Stockfish that humanity could have been assembled.

Personally I very much doubt that a Stockfish with all those changes could have beaten the version that did play by a +28 score over 100 games, but who knows? Even if it could it really doesn't matter and is besides the main point. Alpha Zero taught itself to play chess with only the basic rules as an input and is a major breakthrough.
  

FIDE: ~2100
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


Long live the Nimzo Indian

Posts: 1531
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #47 - 04/04/18 at 15:12:46
Post Tools
gillbod wrote on 03/31/18 at 20:57:21:
Why? Stockfish can't run decently on GPUs, why insist that Alpha Zero should run on CPUs?


I think that point was the match was more or less fixed.

1. Alpha Zero used 2000 times better hardware.
2. It was an old version of Stockfish.
3. A very stupid timecontrol that Stockfish is not designed for.
4. Stockfish got an high but completly unstested number of threads but way to low hashtable even for 8 threads so the number of threads simply weakened it since each thread consumes CPU power  that could be better spend on fewer threads and it had to calculate the same position over and over in many threads.
5. Stockfish got no opening book that it is designed to use while Alpha Zero had a sort of a homemade opening book.
6. Stockfish was not allowed to use tablebases that the engine is designed to use.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
gillbod
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 96
Joined: 03/26/13
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #46 - 03/31/18 at 20:57:21
Post Tools
tdv wrote on 03/28/18 at 19:40:53:
There was no real match... absolutely no interest to compare two "engines" working on 2 (so) different hardwares.

Stockfish remains the best until AlphaZero plays it on the same hardware, IMHO.


Why? Stockfish can't run decently on GPUs, why insist that Alpha Zero should run on CPUs?

Also, it's perfectly possible (even relatively easy) to set up a GPU instance in AWS infrastructure and have it talk to your local chess GUI (i.e. the heavy lifting will be done in the cloud, but you can still use your chess program of choice on your home computer).

So the hardware that Alpha Zero ran on is perfectly accessible to most dedicated people at home without having to buy a new computer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tdv
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Let's play chess!

Posts: 18
Joined: 03/27/18
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #45 - 03/31/18 at 20:15:40
Post Tools
Yes, I learnt yesterday that it was playing 9 dan (even in its single computer version I think)...
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
dfan
God Member
*****
Offline


"When you see a bad move,
look for a better one"

Posts: 705
Location: Boston
Joined: 10/04/05
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #44 - 03/31/18 at 14:35:35
Post Tools
tdv wrote on 03/31/18 at 03:07:08:
Yes, Leela (Sjeng) is a very interesting project, also involved in Go game for quite a long time. But I'm not sure if it obtained significant results yet.

Leela Zero (the Go program) is now pro strength.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tdv
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Let's play chess!

Posts: 18
Joined: 03/27/18
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #43 - 03/31/18 at 03:07:08
Post Tools
Yes, Leela (Sjeng) is a very interesting project, also involved in Go game for quite a long time. But I'm not sure if it obtained significant results yet.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
IsaVulpes
Full Member
***
Offline


No.

Posts: 211
Joined: 12/09/07
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #42 - 03/29/18 at 18:47:10
Post Tools
https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/882jr8/leela_chess_zero_the_fork_of_leel... There is now an effort to 'recreate' AlphaZero in Open Source! It's still quite a bit away (the post mentions ~400 days at current pace), but still quite interesting & not impossible that it will pick up some speed with more people joining in.
You can also play against the engine at its current level, and from what it sounds like (I haven't tried yet), it plays a lot more like actual humans than a handicapped engine normally would, which is exciting stuff.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tdv
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Let's play chess!

Posts: 18
Joined: 03/27/18
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #41 - 03/28/18 at 19:40:53
Post Tools
There was no real match... absolutely no interest to compare two "engines" working on 2 (so) different hardwares.

Stockfish remains the best until AlphaZero plays it on the same hardware, IMHO.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
GMTonyKosten
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline


Mr Dynamic?

Posts: 2944
Location: Clermont-Ferrand
Joined: 12/19/02
Gender: Male
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #40 - 01/21/18 at 11:15:24
Post Tools
mn wrote on 01/19/18 at 19:30:30:
For any chess24 premium members, one of the AlphaZero games is featured in Peter Svidler's "best games of 2017", and Jan Gustafsson has a video series out covering its treatment of the White side of the Queen's Indian.


Also covered by John Emms here on ChessPub, of course: http://www.chesspublishing.com/content/10/index.htm Smiley
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
mn
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 318
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Stockfish dethroned (big time)?!
Reply #39 - 01/19/18 at 19:30:30
Post Tools
For any chess24 premium members, one of the AlphaZero games is featured in Peter Svidler's "best games of 2017", and Jan Gustafsson has a video series out covering its treatment of the White side of the Queen's Indian.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo