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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) QGD vs Ragozin (Read 4034 times)
GMTonyKosten
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #15 - 01/26/18 at 10:34:21
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This Topic was moved here from 1. d4 d5 2. c4 [move by] GMTonyKosten.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #14 - 01/17/18 at 20:18:52
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/16/18 at 23:55:17:
In fact I did play ...Nc6-e7, but it didn't do me much good. . . At least when the knight arrives on e6 it has prospects.


Take a look at Botvinnik-Keres, Hague 1948 and Keres's Nc6-d8-e6.
 
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1032172 ;

  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #13 - 01/16/18 at 23:55:17
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Thanks mn.

1. It looks like I may be buying another book, just to see how well covered they are. Probably the buildup I suggested before has been tried, so I would hope to find some kind of answer there.

2. In fact I did play ...Nc6-e7, but it didn't do me much good. I don't remember if I put it on g6, but it would have been pretty worthless on that square. It's easy to get depressed about an opening when getting spanked by a strong player who has the white pieces. However, it was actually the looking at it after which was really depressing, because I didn't see any way to avoid a sub-optimal exchange QGD. There were some other strong players who would prepare for me in those days, no doubt if I had persisted in the Ragozin I would have seen a lot more of Finegold's treatment. Your comment "which makes sense when you compare it to ...Nbd7-f8-e6 in the Carlsbad proper" seems to me just another way of saying the same thing I said earlier: prefer the Orthodox over the Ragozin. At least when the knight arrives on e6 it has prospects. It can get there from g6 as well, but at a cost to black of two extra tempi. To my mind Ragozin is to Orthodox as Old Indian is to King's Indian. Ragozin and Old Indian both work great against weak players. Against strong players not so much. Now that the Ragozin is becoming popular, I just have to shake my head and say I don't understand.

@EricTheRed - I know that thread. I had the Nimzo question in the back of my mind when reading there before. It was ReneDescartes posting Pert's moves here which brought it to the front.
  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #12 - 01/16/18 at 23:14:42
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Some of these recent questions are touched on in this thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1479984000/15. ; The two threads should probably be in the same sub-forum for consistency and ease of organization.
  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #11 - 01/16/18 at 22:56:37
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/16/18 at 21:03:03:
1. Okay I don't see how ...c7-c6 changes the evaluation but for now I will reserve judgment until I know more.

2. Something like that, or maybe even exactly that. It's in the computer at home but my two remaining brain cells can't seem to recall the precise moves. Well, it was 20+ years ago...

But last summer I was looking at Grau theory 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Bf5 3.c4 e6 4.Qb3 Nc6. And the lines where white played c4xd5 (why not, after all the black bishop is already developed), then Bf4 or Bg5, it occurred to me that I still do not know what to do with that knight on c6. And don't talk to me about Morozevich. He doesn't know either, he just gets creative OTB.


1. Well the main issue in the AVRO game is that White has a two-on-one majority in the centre, making it relatively easy for him to push through with e4 and e5. With ...c6 in, White never has the opportunity to trade his redundant c4 pawn for the very useful e6 pawn, as Black can recapture the other way. These lines are well covered by Pert via the move order 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 (4 a3 [!]) 4...Nf6 5 a3 etc.

2. I've seen the c6 Knight retreat to e7 and re-emerge on, say, g6, which makes sense when you compare it to ...Nbd7-f8-e6 in the Carlsbad proper.
  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #10 - 01/16/18 at 21:03:03
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1. Okay I don't see how ...c7-c6 changes the evaluation but for now I will reserve judgment until I know more.

2. Something like that, or maybe even exactly that. It's in the computer at home but my two remaining brain cells can't seem to recall the precise moves. Well, it was 20+ years ago...

But last summer I was looking at Grau theory 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Bf5 3.c4 e6 4.Qb3 Nc6. And the lines where white played c4xd5 (why not, after all the black bishop is already developed), then Bf4 or Bg5, it occurred to me that I still do not know what to do with that knight on c6. And don't talk to me about Morozevich. He doesn't know either, he just gets creative OTB.
  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #9 - 01/16/18 at 20:33:23
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/16/18 at 19:28:20:
I'm puzzled. You are saying that the Nimzo move order is not a problem for black, but the Ragozin move order is? I notice that in Pert's line that ReneDescartes gave, black neglected to play 5...c6 and thus 6...exd5 was played. Further, if black played ...c6 instead of ...c5, I would be inclined to delay c4xd5 and just build up on the kingside: Bd3, Ne2, O-O, f3, etc. In the Nimzo black already has the chance to play ...d5xc4 and doesn't take it.

Thanks for the second point. I need to go back to school on this black handling, as it could crop up in other 1.d4 d5 variations that I play. According to my ancient strategical knowledge, playing an early ...g5 could get in the way of black's piece pressure on the kingside, while playing ...f5 is standard but has its pluses and minuses.


Regarding the first point, based on my understanding of this stuff, *I think* that's correct. In the line ReneDescartes posted, iirc Pert gave 5...c6 a short section as an alternative. He didn't,  however, mention the dangerous 6 e4!, which (I believe) CarriedbyGg pointed out in another thread.

Regarding the second thing, the line Finegold played against you was 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 d5 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 cxd5 exd5 6 Bg5 h6 7 Bxf6 Qxf6 8 Qa4+ (or something similar), correct?
  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #8 - 01/16/18 at 19:28:20
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I'm puzzled. You are saying that the Nimzo move order is not a problem for black, but the Ragozin move order is? I notice that in Pert's line that ReneDescartes gave, black neglected to play 5...c6 and thus 6...exd5 was played. Further, if black played ...c6 instead of ...c5, I would be inclined to delay c4xd5 and just build up on the kingside: Bd3, Ne2, O-O, f3, etc. In the Nimzo black already has the chance to play ...d5xc4 and doesn't take it.

Thanks for the second point. I need to go back to school on this black handling, as it could crop up in other 1.d4 d5 variations that I play. According to my ancient strategical knowledge, playing an early ...g5 could get in the way of black's piece pressure on the kingside, while playing ...f5 is standard but has its pluses and minuses.
  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #7 - 01/16/18 at 18:49:54
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Via the move order 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 d5 5 a3 Bxc3+ 6 bxc3, Black can play 6...c6!, planning ...cxd5, avoiding the AVRO structure. Via 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 a3 Bxc3+ 5 bxc3 c6!?, White has 6 e4!? dxe4 7 Qg4, reaching a favourable (?) line of the Marshall Gambit.

Also, re: your Ragozin problem, I believe Black is meant to have good counterplay on the Kingside against the variation I think you are describing with ...a6, ...Bd6 and ...g5/...f5.
  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #6 - 01/16/18 at 15:41:39
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ReneDescartes wrote on 01/15/18 at 00:03:10:
I got the distinct impression that Pert was whistling past the graveyard in treating 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb5 4.a3 Bxc3 5.bxc3 Nf6 6.cxd5 exd5 7.e3.

This looks suspiciously like the Nimzo-Indian line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 d5 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3, brought to prominence in Botvinnik - Capablanca, AVRO 1938.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1031957
Another example is Reshevsky - Fine, NY 1941.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1043897
Fine annotated this as 4...d5? 5.a3!. I haven't bought a Nimzo-Indian book in ages, but 4...d5 was still considered a mistake in my 1980s books. I would be very interested to find out if the theoretical status has changed. If it happened, it would not be surprising that I missed it. But more likely defensive technique has improved with the help of computers. If that's the case, I would say avoid.

RE: Ragozin vs Orthodox QGD. Back in the day, I played the Ragozin for a while with mostly good results. But Finegold just did a non-theoretical cxd5, Bg5 against me and I ended up in a Carlsbad structure with my knight on c6, pawn on c7. Not such a big disadvantage, just a clear plan for white. I never figured out a way to avoid that, so I gave up on the Ragozin. My vote would be for the Ntirlis repertoire (defending the Carlsbad structure with my pieces on the right squares), albeit I haven't seen either book.

Urgh, I can't believe I typed Botvinnik - Alekhine. I have passed old, going on doddering.
  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #5 - 01/15/18 at 00:03:10
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CanadianClub wrote on 12/24/17 at 17:29:49:
ErictheRed wrote on 12/23/17 at 22:38:52:
I'm not convinced that the Accelerated Ragozin is equally as sound if White plays critically.


I thought the best way for White to deal with this move order is to enter in the main line Ragozin with 4.Nf3. At least us what Max Illingworth wrote (if I am not mistaken).

100% agree with Eric in his post.

@Marcellus, if you play the Nimzo, the Ragozin is your option. If you play the Noteboom it's easy to get similar positions from Ragozin and Acc.Ragozin. If not, it's up to you. Both are good. I think Niko's book explains more basically the plans for Black, while Pert book seems to me more advanced (well explained also). But both are very good books to make a repertoire based on them. Nikos starts after 1.d4 d5. Pert after d4+c4 by Black, so London, Torre, Tromp... are not covered (they're in Ntirlis').

Salut,


I got the distinct impression that Pert was whistling past the graveyard in treating 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb5 4.a3 Bxc3 5.bxc3 Nf6 6.cxd5 exd5 7.e3. Maybe Black can hold theoretically, especially if Black is an engine, but it looks harder to play with Black. Common sense dictates that the accelerated version would be much more popular if it were ok.

In Chessbase, I see that top-level players sometimes allow it as Black, but almost entirely against weaker players. It seems the so-called accelerated Ragozin is used to sharpen the game or as a surprise weapon. White often plays Nf3 or Bf4 in response, but I think that's to bail out of an unusual line in order to avoid presumed preparation rather than to play the better move. When White does go right down the main line above (Which Pert himself says is White's best), White has an excellent record. In fact, from games with both players over 2000, I see only one game where Black beat someone not lower-rated!
« Last Edit: 01/15/18 at 01:53:12 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #4 - 12/26/17 at 14:12:04
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Thanks to all for the responses. I would try to play the Ragozin via the accelerated move order, avoiding the Nimzo. I'll look at Max Illingworth's analysis more closely to ensure (hopefully) that I'm not entering into worse positions than the Nimzo (or QGD).
If I knew that I could face a mainline QGD every time (no exchange and especially not Bf4), I would play it, as I like the variety of choices. The problem is getting to Bg5. Pert's interpretation of the Ragozin just seems more fun to me.
  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #3 - 12/24/17 at 17:29:49
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/23/17 at 22:38:52:
I'm not convinced that the Accelerated Ragozin is equally as sound if White plays critically.


I thought the best way for White to deal with this move order is to enter in the main line Ragozin with 4.Nf3. At least us what Max Illingworth wrote (if I am not mistaken).

100% agree with Eric in his post.

@Marcellus, if you play the Nimzo, the Ragozin is your option. If you play the Noteboom it's easy to get similar positions from Ragozin and Acc.Ragozin. If not, it's up to you. Both are good. I think Niko's book explains more basically the plans for Black, while Pert book seems to me more advanced (well explained also). But both are very good books to make a repertoire based on them. Nikos starts after 1.d4 d5. Pert after d4+c4 by Black, so London, Torre, Tromp... are not covered (they're in Ntirlis').

Salut,
  
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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #2 - 12/24/17 at 02:13:01
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The main advantage of the Classical QGD over the Ragozin is that it's easier, and more solid - but that is also its relative disadvantage.
  

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Re: QGD vs Ragozin
Reply #1 - 12/23/17 at 22:38:52
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The reason to play the QGD instead of the Ragozin, and vice versa, is because you want to. 

These days, the QGD and proper Ragozin seem to be of approximately equal soundness (I'm not convinced that the Accelerated Ragozin is equally as sound if White plays critically).  While some positions arising from either defense can be quite similar, they often lead to very different types of positions, so a person should play the one that leads to the types of positions that they prefer.  The Ragozin often sees Black adopting a "light-squared strategy," similar to some lines of the Nimzo and Queen's Indian.  If you like that sort of thing, you play the Ragozin. 

There seems to be more unexplored territory in the Ragozin, which appeals to many players.  On the other hand, there's probably less risk associated with playing the QGD, in the sense that you are less likely to be hit with a strong novelty than in the Ragozin.  So if you like doing independent research, finding novel ideas, etc., you'll probably like the Ragozin more. 

Given that you said that "you might be missing something," I think that something would be that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 is actually not so easy for Black.  If White were forced to play 4.Nf3, I suspect that it would be much more popular, but 4.a3 and 4.e3 are both very challenging.  I'm not sure of the ultimate theoretical verdict, but the Queen's Gambit Declined generally leads to less sharp play, and probably positions that are easier to handle.
  
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