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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 (Read 1610 times)
Stigma
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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #18 - 01/11/18 at 22:02:24
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CanadianClub wrote on 01/10/18 at 11:12:34:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 5.Bc4!? interesting; but then 5...e6 6.cxd4 d5


mn wrote on 01/10/18 at 19:12:10:
White might try 6 Nxd4!? instead.

I think we've transposed to the line 3 Bc4 Bg7 4 c3 e6 etc.


Good points. Esserman claims White is slightly better after 6.Nxd4, with 6...Ne7 and 6...a6 the most testing replies, though Black's position looks OK to me - again this "deformed Dragon" structure that can also arise from the Kan. At least White has been forced to play a slightly more positional and less Morra-like position (the same can be said of 3/4...d3 of course).

Gawain Jones in How to Beat the Sicilian Defence also reached the same position type via 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bc4 Bg7 4.c3 e6 5.0-0 Ne7 6.d4 cxd4 7.Nxd4!? (with both 5...d5 and 6...d5 from Black also considered). Jones' treatment looks a bit more detailed than Esserman's, but I haven't really compared them.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #17 - 01/11/18 at 20:29:38
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MNb wrote on 01/10/18 at 09:48:01:
Stigma wrote on 01/09/18 at 19:14:44:
But what if I argue that after 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.Nf3, 4...d3 is simply the best move?

Then I'd argue that 3...d3 is simply more accurate. After 4.Bxd3 Nc6 5.c4 g6 White's best is something with Nf3 anyway.

So we agree then (as does Panjwani): If Black wants one consistent system against both the regular and delayed Morra, he might as well play 3...d3. (Though of course if 2.d4 is played, Black is free to choose a line without ...g6 even if he's otherwise aiming for the Hyper-accelerated Dragon.)
MNb wrote on 01/10/18 at 09:48:01:
I even would be tempted to argue that 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 Bg7 4.d4 and now cxd4 might be inaccurate because of 5.Bc4.

I'm less sure about this: If you look at the position it's hard to suggest any other move than 4...cxd4. At least all moves I can think of run into problems. Note especially 4...d5 5.dxc5 dxe4 6.Qxd8+ Kxd8 7.Ng5 winning a pawn – in Panjwani's line 3.c3 Nc6!? 4.d4 d5 this problem doesn't arise since the knight can recapture on d8: 5.dxc5 dxe4 6.Qxd8+ Nxd8.

So if the position after 5.Bc4 should really turn out to be good for White, 3... Bg7 may already be inaccurate.

CarriedbyGg wrote on 01/10/18 at 07:23:36:
You can also check Kotronias analysis in his Anti-Sicilian book. I believe that he accepts the Gambit via an acc. Dragon move order.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of this. I will look at it if I'm not satisfied with the ...d3 declined lines offered by Panjwani.

Does Kotronias claim an advantage for Black, or does White get full compensation in his view?
  

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mn
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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #16 - 01/10/18 at 19:12:10
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White might try 6 Nxd4!? instead.

I think we've transposed to the line 3 Bc4 Bg7 4 c3 e6 etc.
  
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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #15 - 01/10/18 at 11:12:34
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1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 5.Bc4!? interesting; but then 5...e6 6.cxd4 d5
  
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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #14 - 01/10/18 at 09:48:01
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Stigma wrote on 01/09/18 at 19:14:44:
But what if I argue that after 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.Nf3, 4...d3 is simply the best move?

Then I'd argue that 3...d3 is simply more accurate. After 4.Bxd3 Nc6 5.c4 g6 White's best is something with Nf3 anyway.
I even would be tempted to argue that 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 Bg7 4.d4 and now cxd4 might be inaccurate because of 5.Bc4.
  

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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #13 - 01/10/18 at 07:23:36
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You can also check Kotronias analysis in his Anti-Sicilian book. I believe that he accepts the Gambit via an acc. Dragon move order.
  
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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #12 - 01/09/18 at 21:49:34
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Stigma wrote on 01/09/18 at 21:01:41:
This "deformed" Dragon structure has actually been recommended a few times recently: By Panjwani (in one of the Maroczy lines), Delchev/Semkov and Castellanos (the latter two as an offbeat answer to 5.Bd3 in the Sicilian Kan).


Yeah, it reminded me of the Kan line.  (I'm such a dinosaur or whatever that I recall when it came on the scene in the 1970s, e.g. the nice game Rantanen-Olafsson.)
  
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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #11 - 01/09/18 at 21:01:41
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RoleyPoley wrote on 01/09/18 at 20:48:06:
Esserman gives 5....d3 an ?! with 6.QB3! e6 following up - "recall the lessons learned from your morra dragon studies - when the dragon's tail deforms with e6 rather than the fluid...d6 typically the structure collapses around the compromised dark squares, particularly d6. " this part of his book is his analysis and doesnt list any particular games.

He does give a game with black playing 3...d3 and 4...g6 between him and Zybnek Hracek.

Thanks. So then you agree Black should prefer 4.Nf3 d3?

I will take a look at Esserman's analysis myself (I have the book); maybe it's possible to improve Black's case after 3...g6 4.Nf3 Bg7.

This "deformed" Dragon structure has actually been recommended a few times recently: By Panjwani (in one of the Maroczy lines), Delchev/Semkov and Castellanos (the latter two as an offbeat answer to 5.Bd3 in the Sicilian Kan).
  

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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #10 - 01/09/18 at 20:48:06
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Stigma wrote on 01/09/18 at 19:14:44:
RoleyPoley wrote on 01/09/18 at 18:26:07:
3...d3 might make sense for an accelerated dragon player to head into because of the greater familiarity of bind structures, but is it one that they enjoy? I always thought it akin to french/QG & slav exchange lines where even with good results it wasnt something they wished for.

But what if I argue that after 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.Nf3, 4...d3 is simply the best move? Accepting the Morra pawn with ...g6 is usually considered dubious, and it's not that easy to just continue developing instead. If that's correct, Black needs to be ready for the ...d3 line even if he really wants to play something else.

Maybe after 4.Nf3, 4...Bg7 is worth throwing in, and if 5.Bc4 only now 5...d3!? Though 6.Qb3 may be annoying. I'm just thinking on my own here; no idea whether this is known theory.


Esserman gives 5....d3 an ?! with 6.QB3! e6 following up - "recall the lessons learned from your morra dragon studies - when the dragon's tail deforms with e6 rather than the fluid...d6 typically the structure collapses around the compromised dark squares, particularly d6. " this part of his book is his analysis and doesnt list any particular games.

He does give a game with black playing 3...d3 and 4...g6 between him and Zybnek Hracek.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #9 - 01/09/18 at 20:09:49
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About the line in my original post: Accelerated Dragon specialist Gadir Guseinov played the "Greet line" with 5...Bg4 without ...cxd4 first once each in the recent World rapid and blitz Ch (though the Ponkratov game looks depressingly passive for Black). Other strong GMs like Sturua and Khalifman have also played it in recent years.

On the other hand, 5...cxd4 6.cxd4 Bg4 scores better for Black (I only looked at OTB games from the last 6 years), especially if he meets 7.Bb5 with 7...Rc8!? instead of Panjwani's 7...Qb6. Seems like Black is spoilt for choice. Though 5...Bg4 6.Nbd2 and 5...cxd4 6.cxd4 Bg4 7.Nbd2 both look like serious tries for White.





  

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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #8 - 01/09/18 at 19:14:44
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RoleyPoley wrote on 01/09/18 at 18:26:07:
3...d3 might make sense for an accelerated dragon player to head into because of the greater familiarity of bind structures, but is it one that they enjoy? I always thought it akin to french/QG & slav exchange lines where even with good results it wasnt something they wished for.

But what if I argue that after 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.Nf3, 4...d3 is simply the best move? Accepting the Morra pawn with ...g6 is usually considered dubious, and it's not that easy to just continue developing instead. If that's correct, Black needs to be ready for the ...d3 line even if he really wants to play something else.

Maybe after 4.Nf3, 4...Bg7 is worth throwing in, and if 5.Bc4 only now 5...d3!? Though 6.Qb3 may be annoying. I'm just thinking on my own here; no idea whether this is known theory.
  

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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #7 - 01/09/18 at 18:26:07
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CanadianClub wrote on 01/08/18 at 13:35:02:
Interesting to note that when you want to face the Morra Gambit like this:

1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.cxd4 d5 5.e5

you arrive to the same position, and the pawns are already exchanged. So... maybe this is a line you have to prepare yourself anyway. I don't know what annoys Mora players the most: this line or de 3...d3 one (recommended by Panjwani).

Salut,


3...d3 might make sense for an accelerated dragon player to head into because of the greater familiarity of bind structures, but is it one that they enjoy? I always thought it akin to french/QG & slav exchange lines where even with good results it wasnt something they wished for.

As for the white player, there isnt much to fear from this line and play can be fairly straight forward. they're not even a pawn down  Cheesy

The panov line with g6 would be more of a concern for me, although that might be just because the last time i faced it i struggled.. Sad
  

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Stigma
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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #6 - 01/08/18 at 20:46:52
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MNb wrote on 01/08/18 at 16:53:49:
The position is not the same as the knight is not on f3 yet. That´s important for the position after 5.e5 but also allows White to transpose to the Panov Variation of the Caro-Kann straightaway with 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.cxd4 d5 5.exd5 as Qxd5 6.Nc3 or 6.Nf3 and 7.Nc3 is just better for White.

True, but I don't think White gets an advantage easily in the Panov-Botvinnik even when Black is committed to ...g6, whose standing has improved in the past decade. I have only played the Panov-Botvnnik once with White, against an opponent I could be fairly sure would play it with ...g6. He did, but I still lost...
  

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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #5 - 01/08/18 at 20:43:55
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CanadianClub wrote on 01/08/18 at 13:35:02:
Interesting to note that when you want to face the Morra Gambit like this:

1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.cxd4 d5 5.e5

you arrive to the same position, and the pawns are already exchanged. So... maybe this is a line you have to prepare yourself anyway. I don't know what annoys Mora players the most: this line or de 3...d3 one (recommended by Panjwani).

Salut,


But can Black really count on reaching this line against the Morra gambit?
The White gambit player can refuse to capture on d4 for a number of moves with 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Bc4 etc. This can also be reached from the delayed Morra 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 Bg7.

The one system White can't avoid in either line is 3...d3/4...d3, so this is what Panjwani recommends.

Edit: Actually I would want to avoid the line you give altogether. Isn't White better when he hasn't played Nf3 and can get in h3 to prevent ...Bg4? Smerdon used to think so when he ran the Anti-Sicilians section on the main site iirc.
« Last Edit: 01/09/18 at 19:21:06 by Stigma »  

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Re: Move order issues after 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3
Reply #4 - 01/08/18 at 16:53:49
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The position is not the same as the knight is not on f3 yet. That´s important for the position after 5.e5 but also allows White to transpose to the Panov Variation of the Caro-Kann straightaway with 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.cxd4 d5 5.exd5 as Qxd5 6.Nc3 or 6.Nf3 and 7.Nc3 is just better for White.
  

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