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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical (Read 1411 times)
Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #13 - 05/11/18 at 23:52:18
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helmet wrote on 05/11/18 at 18:54:43:
None of the posts in this thread mention what happens if white does move the Knight into e5 which Nd7 was designed to deter




I think that this is the main line of 7...e6, same as given in Vidit's DVD. The main sequence leads to a weird Poisoned Pawn with good knight vs. bad bichop.

To me looks more interesting than the stuff with 7...Cd7, which is good too, but has all been seen before.
  
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #12 - 05/11/18 at 23:38:15
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helmet wrote on 05/11/18 at 18:54:43:
None of the posts in this thread mention what happens if white does move the Knight into e5 which Nd7 was designed to deter




I think that this is the main line of 7...e6, same as given in Vidit's DVD. The main sequence leads to a weird Poisoned Pawn with good knight vs. bad bichop.

To me looks more interesting than the stuff with 7...Cd7, which is good too, but has all been seen before.
  
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helmet
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classicaln
Reply #11 - 05/11/18 at 18:54:43
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Interesting stuff, are there problems in the old Nd7 lines that have caused this switch to 7...e6 or is it just a fashion thing.

None of the posts in this thread mention what happens if white does move the Knight into e5 which Nd7 was designed to deter
  
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #10 - 02/02/18 at 15:41:02
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Thx, Pantu. I will have a look.
  
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #9 - 02/01/18 at 20:52:07
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Schandorff did surveys in Chessbase Magazine 178 (of 7...e6 8.Ne5) and also number 180 (of 7...e6 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Nf6)

He thinks Grandelius-Schandorff is better for white and prefers 11.Bd2 c5! with 12.Ne4 Nc6 13.Bc3 cxd4 14.Nxd4 Nb4 and follows Wei-Yang, chT China 2017 with a computer suggestion for black to equalise at move 19.

At the end of the more recent one his conclusion:

Quote:
The new way of playing the classical Caro-Kann with 7...e6 is clearly giving White players some headaches these days. No clear way to any advantage exists and Black wins a lot of the games! That said, White has some initiative and Black needs to know what he is doing. If he does that he can confidently add the line to his repertoire.
« Last Edit: 02/01/18 at 21:59:13 by Pantu »  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #8 - 01/31/18 at 23:36:44
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Thank you for that huge update, Califax!  It was very helpful.   I'm certainly no expert in the Caro, the lines I gave were sort of received wisdom from ten years ago or so.
  
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #7 - 01/31/18 at 21:14:53
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Right now there is only Negi up to some point from white perspective and Vidit. Maybe, Bologan will have something to say about it.

Negi (chapter 26) from white perspective on the transposing issue, discussing 8.Ne5:
Quote:
In one of my early attempts in this line, I did not notice the difference between 7...e6 and 7...Nd7. It was an unforgettable lesson in the move orders, as after 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Nf6!


The book gives mistakenly 10...e6 here, because it used the game via transposition.
Negi goes on to give the arguments Eric also gave here:

Quote:
Black went on to equalize without any problems in Negi - Zenklusen, Biel 2007. Compared with the main line, the fact that he has played ...Nf6 instead of ...Nd7 greatly simplifies Black's task. If Bd2 is played, he can hit the centre with a quick ...c5, while Bf4 may lead to an unwanted exchange after ...Bd6 (with or without a check on b4 to provoke c3).


Vidit in addition also mention another point Eric gave as well: The quick possibility of ...Qd5 because of no knight on d7 hinders it.

ErictheRed wrote on 01/26/18 at 14:55:32:
I understand your question better now.  After 7...e6 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Nf6! (instead of 10...Nbd7, transposing to 7...Nbd7), Black already has a plus score according to my database.  As mn said, there are lines where Black can play ...c5 quickly and post the knight to the more aggressive square c6, and the queen also benefits by having a clear view to the d5-square and d4-pawn, as well as x-raying White's queen on d3.   

Specifically, on 11.Bf4 Bd6 already looks very simple and equal for Black, though 11...Qa5+ may be even stronger.  And 11.Bd2 c5! already looks excellent for Black.  For instance, 12.0-0-0 Nc6 13.Bc3 Qd5, etc. 


That being said, after 11.Bd2 Vidit does not like the immediate 11...c5. He gives your line as being equal and continues it, but he does like 12.Ne4 better for White:

Quote:
12.Ne4!? Nc6 13.Bc3, Black faces problems with the development of the f8 bishop


Wei Yi beat Wang Hao here in 2017.
Because of this Vidit gave originally 11...Be7 12.0-0-0 0-0 13.Ne4 N:e4 14.Qe4 Qd5, but Grandelius won two nice games in 2017 simply leaving the a2 pawn unprotected with 15.Qg4! One of his opponents btw was non other than ... Schandorff. So Vidit updated his own video in the accompanying files, suggesting 12...c5 instead, but with a bunch of alternative lines following on move 13 it is not very clear without additional help from the video (not availabe for this line) which line exactly he recommends.

As you can see, it is not at all simple - even in the lines that are supposed to be good for Black. And in the main lines Black has to play sometimes a pawn done which also might be theoretically tough once the surprise value of the line has gone. See my post below.
Right now it is a good over the board weapon I guess, but with very good prospects for the stronger player because of many possible deviations and the overall complex position.

califax wrote on 08/21/17 at 23:00:42:
mn wrote on 06/07/17 at 23:10:14:
2. In the Classical Variation with 7...e6, where does his analysis meet Negi's?


...



  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #6 - 01/26/18 at 14:55:32
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I understand your question better now.  After 7...e6 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Nf6! (instead of 10...Nbd7, transposing to 7...Nbd7), Black already has a plus score according to my database.  As mn said, there are lines where Black can play ...c5 quickly and post the knight to the more aggressive square c6, and the queen also benefits by having a clear view to the d5-square and d4-pawn, as well as x-raying White's queen on d3.   

Specifically, on 11.Bf4 Bd6 already looks very simple and equal for Black, though 11...Qa5+ may be even stronger.  And 11.Bd2 c5! already looks excellent for Black.  For instance, 12.0-0-0 Nc6 13.Bc3 Qd5, etc. 
  
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #5 - 01/26/18 at 13:52:03
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/26/18 at 04:53:55:
Also in many of the 7...Nbd7 lines, White doesn't play Nf3-e5 at all; that's one of the points of 7...Nbd7.  So a direct transposition wouldn't be likely, anyhow.  If 7...e6 8.Ne5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Nd7 for instance, Black has the immediate idea of chopping on e5 and capturing on d3, ruining White's pawn structure. 

They are a bit more likely to transpose if White passes up the chance to meet 7...e6 with 8.Ne5, that was my point. Perhaps White is lazy and tries to kill two birds with one stone, or doesn't realize the difference between 7...e6 and 7...Nd7 matters. Both quite likely scenarios on club level.

Though mn is likely right that Black can then profitably avoid the transposition.



  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #4 - 01/26/18 at 04:53:55
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Also in many of the 7...Nbd7 lines, White doesn't play Nf3-e5 at all; that's one of the points of 7...Nbd7.  So a direct transposition wouldn't be likely, anyhow.  If 7...e6 8.Ne5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 Nd7 for instance, Black has the immediate idea of chopping on e5 and capturing on d3, ruining White's pawn structure. 

The two lines are not really going to transpose to each other, and if White doesn't play critically I think that Black has an easier path to equality (or possibly more) after 7...e6.  I don't know so much about the ultimate theoretical verdict of the two moves, but I think that White has a wider choice of playable lines after 7...Nd7.
  
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #3 - 01/26/18 at 02:19:47
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iirc Black can make use of the Knight on b8 with ...c5 and ...Nc6 in some positions.
  
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #2 - 01/26/18 at 02:09:00
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What happens if White just pretends it's the normal line with 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 ? Does Black have something better than transposing with ...Nd7 soon?
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
Reply #1 - 01/26/18 at 02:02:41
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I don't know of one, which might be a compelling reason to play it as Black, frankly!
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Caro book covering 7. Cf3 e6 in 4...Af5 Classical
01/26/18 at 00:31:20
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Is there any Black book where it is recommended the line:



I have a Russian book by Karpow on the Caro-Kann that I think covers this line, but it is not repertoire and is from 2011(?) or something.

Other than the DVD by Vidit, I have no other source for this line, where Black does not play 7...Cd7, but 7...e6.
  
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