Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) A difficult rook endgame (Read 959 times)
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 426
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #12 - 02/12/18 at 09:44:58
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/11/18 at 16:05:26:
My PC argues 9...Nh6 10.Re1 Kd8 is = (0.00), e.g. 11.Nh3 Rf8 12.d4 d5 13.Bb5 Bxh3 14.Bxc6 Bd6 etc.


grand Smiley

you've just prompted me to download Stockfish
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1378
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #11 - 02/11/18 at 16:05:26
Post Tools
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/11/18 at 14:47:15:
[...] though I'm not sure 6...Be7, for instance, is straightforwardly equal is it? White is going to play Nxe4, Nf3 and Ng5 anyway; e.g. 7 Nxe4 Nc6 8 Nf3 Qh5 9 Neg5, when even 9...Nd4!? 10 Qe4 Ne6 11 Nxe6 fxe6 12 Qxf4 might offer White a little something, whose structure looks more relevant than displaced king.

My PC argues 9...Nh6 10.Re1 Kd8 is = (0.00), e.g. 11.Nh3 Rf8 12.d4 d5 13.Bb5 Bxh3 14.Bxc6 Bd6 etc.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 426
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #10 - 02/11/18 at 14:47:15
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/11/18 at 12:46:42:
I love it how this position has been neglected since the 19th century...


Yes indeed Smiley . I have ten games with 6 Nc3 from 1865-1894 and then... nothing... until my own games 2006-2017.

On the theory, I've always played 6...Kd8 but have found the line 7 Nxe4 c6 8 Nf3 Qe7 9 Neg5 to be far more difficult to defend than it looks. Yes, maybe 11...Qxe2+ makes more sense than 11...Bg4 in the game under discussion. If Black is going to play this anyway, it makes sense to do so straight away.

Other than that, yes, maybe it's time to look at different 6th moves for Black again, though I'm not sure 6...Be7, for instance, is straightforwardly equal is it? White is going to play Nxe4, Nf3 and Ng5 anyway; e.g. 7 Nxe4 Nc6 8 Nf3 Qh5 9 Neg5, when even 9...Nd4!? 10 Qe4 Ne6 11 Nxe6 fxe6 12 Qxf4 might offer White a little something, whose structure looks more relevant than displaced king.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1378
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #9 - 02/11/18 at 12:46:42
Post Tools
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/10/18 at 08:41:34:
Well, okay, then. 27...Rd8 and draws. Smiley

All the same, for the theory of 3...f5, I'm not sure whether it's practical for me to base it on a difficult double rook endgame for Black. Any suggestions earlier on?

There are alternatives in moves 14-16, perhaps sufficient for a draw. But that's hardly what you want, Black is still restricted to defence. So I'd rather suggest 11...Qxe2+! when White has to decide how to recapture: (a) 12.Bxe2 Bd6 13.b3 Re8 14.Bb2 Re7 15.Bd3 Bf5 =. (b) 12.Rxe2 Bg4 13.h3 (13.b3 Be7 14.Bb2 Bxg5 15.Nxg5 Re8) 13...Bxf3 14.gxf3 (14.Nxf3 Nd7 15.b4 Be7 =) 14...Na6 15.Bxh7 Be7 16.Ne6+ Kd7 17.Bg6 Bd6 18.Ng5 Raf8 19.Nh7 Rf5! =.

If we look for earlier ideas, there are several in move six. I love it how this position has been neglected since the 19th century... Perhaps best is 6...Be7! =, while 6...Nc6 and 6...Ne7 are also worth a look.

Move three ... but let's not go there, it would be dangerously close to the Wagenbach swamp.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 426
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #8 - 02/10/18 at 08:41:34
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/08/18 at 13:54:44:
Checking 30.d4 with Stockfish 8 (depth 39/88), Black seems safe (+0.39) after 30...Rd3+ 31.Rd2 Rc3 32.d5 Rg8 33.Rf7+ Kd6 34.Rf6+ Kc7 35.Rc2 Rg1+ 36.Kd2 Rh3 37.c5 Rh5 =.

It's always a question that plagues me in such endings: how would I fare over the board? Hard to play precisely, although targeting the d-pawn must be the key. The PC offers 30...Kb6 as an alternative. It's attractive for humans, as in some lines the King can play an active role: Ka5-b4. The main line is 31.Rb2+ Kc7 32.Rf7+ Kd6 33.Rbb7 Rd3+ 34.Kc2 Rxd4 35.Kc3 Rh4 36.Rxh7 Rxh7 37.Rxh7 Ra8, +0.69. This should be a draw.

Books argue 4-rook endings offer more practical chances for the defender than exchanging a pair of rooks. Easy to play they are not. 


Well, okay, then. 27...Rd8 and draws. Smiley

All the same, for the theory of 3...f5, I'm not sure whether it's practical for me to base it on a difficult double rook endgame for Black. Any suggestions earlier on?
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1378
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #7 - 02/08/18 at 13:54:44
Post Tools
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/08/18 at 08:54:20:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/07/18 at 16:10:51:
A new attempt to improve the defence, two moves earlier: 27...Rd8 28.Re2 Rh3 29.Rxf4 Kc7 30.Re7+ Kb6 31.Rf6+ Kc5 32.Rc7+ Kd4 33.Ra6 h5 34.Raxa7 Rd3 35.Kc2 Ke4 36.a4 h4 37.Rh7 Rxd2+ 38.Kc3 and here Black has a draw: 38...R2d3+ 39.Kb4 Rb8+ 40.Rab7 Rxb7+ 41.Rxb7 h3 =.   


Ah, I didn't consider 27...Rd8 at all. Smiley

Yes, Lomonosov confirms the end of that line as a draw after a few "only moves" for Black: 42 Rh7 Kf4 43 a5 Kg3 44 a6 Rd2 45 c5 h2 46 c6 Rd4+ 47 Kb5 Rh4 48 Rxh4 Kxh4 49 c7 h1Q 50 c8Q etc.

Maybe White can try 30 d4 instead?

Checking 30.d4 with Stockfish 8 (depth 39/88), Black seems safe (+0.39) after 30...Rd3+ 31.Rd2 Rc3 32.d5 Rg8 33.Rf7+ Kd6 34.Rf6+ Kc7 35.Rc2 Rg1+ 36.Kd2 Rh3 37.c5 Rh5 =.

It's always a question that plagues me in such endings: how would I fare over the board? Hard to play precisely, although targeting the d-pawn must be the key. The PC offers 30...Kb6 as an alternative. It's attractive for humans, as in some lines the King can play an active role: Ka5-b4. The main line is 31.Rb2+ Kc7 32.Rf7+ Kd6 33.Rbb7 Rd3+ 34.Kc2 Rxd4 35.Kc3 Rh4 36.Rxh7 Rxh7 37.Rxh7 Ra8, +0.69. This should be a draw.

Books argue 4-rook endings offer more practical chances for the defender than exchanging a pair of rooks. Easy to play they are not. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 426
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #6 - 02/08/18 at 08:54:20
Post Tools
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/07/18 at 16:10:51:
A new attempt to improve the defence, two moves earlier: 27...Rd8 28.Re2 Rh3 29.Rxf4 Kc7 30.Re7+ Kb6 31.Rf6+ Kc5 32.Rc7+ Kd4 33.Ra6 h5 34.Raxa7 Rd3 35.Kc2 Ke4 36.a4 h4 37.Rh7 Rxd2+ 38.Kc3 and here Black has a draw: 38...R2d3+ 39.Kb4 Rb8+ 40.Rab7 Rxb7+ 41.Rxb7 h3 =.   


Ah, I didn't consider 27...Rd8 at all. Smiley

Yes, Lomonosov confirms the end of that line as a draw after a few "only moves" for Black: 42 Rh7 Kf4 43 a5 Kg3 44 a6 Rd2 45 c5 h2 46 c6 Rd4+ 47 Kb5 Rh4 48 Rxh4 Kxh4 49 c7 h1Q 50 c8Q etc.

Maybe White can try 30 d4 instead?
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1378
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #5 - 02/07/18 at 16:10:51
Post Tools
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/07/18 at 09:37:21:
Re 29...Ke7 – maybe I didn't look at that as closely as I should, since I was deliberately aiming for the endgame in the main line. But in general I thought Black had more chances with the h-pawn than the f-pawn. For instance, after something like 30 Rh6 f3 31 Rxh5 Rf8 32 Re5+ Kf6 33 Rdd5 Rh8 34 Rf5+ Ke6 35 Kc2 Rhh2 36 Rf4 Rf1 37 Rd3 f2 38 Rdf3, I'm not sure whether it's possible just to sit on this, as White can make progress with Kd4, d2-d3, edging slowly forwards, and getting the a-pawn for the f-pawn isn't enough for Black here. Those endgames seem always to be lost.

You are right, White's gradual progress is hard to stop. This may well be lost. - A new attempt to improve the defence, two moves earlier: 27...Rd8 28.Re2 Rh3 29.Rxf4 Kc7 30.Re7+ Kb6 31.Rf6+ Kc5 32.Rc7+ Kd4 33.Ra6 h5 34.Raxa7 Rd3 35.Kc2 Ke4 36.a4 h4 37.Rh7 Rxd2+ 38.Kc3 and here Black has a draw: 38...R2d3+ 39.Kb4 Rb8+ 40.Rab7 Rxb7+ 41.Rxb7 h3 =.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 426
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #4 - 02/07/18 at 09:37:21
Post Tools
Thanks for the diagram Smiley

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/06/18 at 19:00:08:
I just did a quick pass through the moves. After 53.Rb6+, 53...Ke5 seems wrong. Instead 53...Ke7 54.Rxa6 Kd8 and for the moment white cannot trade rooks, later black might draw even without the h-pawn.

Re 53...Ke7 – no, it makes no difference at that point where the king goes, since 54 Rxa6 is a winning endgame according to Lomonosov. Apparently after 55...Kd8, it's mate in 30! But otherwise, yes, a drawn R+a+c v R is what I was playing for in a lot of cases. I just missed that with 52 d7! he could force one that is winning for White.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/06/18 at 20:28:39:
A hard fight and instructive ending - thanks for the link, Jonathan. I fear 53...Ke7 is losing, but 29...Ke7 comes into consideration: 30.Rh6 f3 31.c5 Rf1+ 32.Kc2 f2 33.Re4+ Kf7 34.Rf4+ Ke7 35.Rxh5 Rd8 36.Rhf5 Ke6 37.Rf6+ Ke7 38.Rxf2 Rxf2 39.Rxf2 Rd5. I don't have access to the Lomonosov tablebases though...

Re 29...Ke7 – maybe I didn't look at that as closely as I should, since I was deliberately aiming for the endgame in the main line. But in general I thought Black had more chances with the h-pawn than the f-pawn. For instance, after something like 30 Rh6 f3 31 Rxh5 Rf8 32 Re5+ Kf6 33 Rdd5 Rh8 34 Rf5+ Ke6 35 Kc2 Rhh2 36 Rf4 Rf1 37 Rd3 f2 38 Rdf3, I'm not sure whether it's possible just to sit on this, as White can make progress with Kd4, d2-d3, edging slowly forwards, and getting the a-pawn for the f-pawn isn't enough for Black here. Those endgames seem always to be lost.
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Stefan Buecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1378
Location: Germany
Joined: 02/11/09
Gender: Male
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #3 - 02/06/18 at 20:28:39
Post Tools
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/06/18 at 15:38:59:
Anyway, I recently lost a rook endgame in an online game and I was so impressed with my opponent's play that I've blogged about it.

A hard fight and instructive ending - thanks for the link, Jonathan. I fear 53...Ke7 is losing, but 29...Ke7 comes into consideration: 30.Rh6 f3 31.c5 Rf1+ 32.Kc2 f2 33.Re4+ Kf7 34.Rf4+ Ke7 35.Rxh5 Rd8 36.Rhf5 Ke6 37.Rf6+ Ke7 38.Rxf2 Rxf2 39.Rxf2 Rd5. I don't have access to the Lomonosov tablebases though...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 240
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #2 - 02/06/18 at 19:00:08
Post Tools
I just did a quick pass through the moves. After 53.Rb6+, 53...Ke5 seems wrong. Instead 53...Ke7 54.Rxa6 Kd8 and for the moment white cannot trade rooks, later black might draw even without the h-pawn.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 240
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: A difficult rook endgame
Reply #1 - 02/06/18 at 18:50:12
Post Tools
Position after 35...Kc6
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jonathan Tait
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 426
Location: Nottingham
Joined: 07/11/06
A difficult rook endgame
02/06/18 at 15:38:59
Post Tools
[Event "Thematic tournament"]
[Site "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2017"]
[White "AndyAndyO"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C33"]
[PlyCount "121"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 f5 4. Qe2 Qh4+ 5. Kd1 fxe4 6. Nc3 Kd8 7. Nxe4 c6 8. Nf3 Qe7 9. Neg5 d5 10. Bd3 Nh6 11. Re1 Bg4 12. b3 Bxf3 13. Nxf3 Qxe2+ 14. Bxe2 Be7 15. Bb2 Rg8 16. c4 Bf6 17. Bxf6+ gxf6 18. Rc1 Rxg2 19. cxd5 Nf7 20. Nd4 Rxh2 21. dxc6 Nxc6 22. Nxc6+ bxc6 23. Rxc6 Ke7 24. Bc4+ Ne5 25. Re6+ Kd7 26. Rxf6 Nxc4 27. bxc4 Rf2 28. Re4 h5 29. Rd4+ Kc7 30. Rfxf4 Rxf4 31. Rxf4 Rh8 32. Rh4 Kd6 33. Kc2 Kc5 34. Kc3 Rh6 35. d4+ Kc6 36. Kb4 Rh8 37. a4 Rb8+ 38. Kc3 Rh8 39. a5 a6 40. Kd3 Kd6 41. Ke3 Re8+ 42. Kd2 Rh8 43. Kd3 Rh7 44. Ke4 Rh8 45. Rh3 Re8+ 46. Kd3 Rh8 47. c5+ Kc6 48. Kc4 h4 49. d5+ Kd7 50. d6 Rh7 51. Rb3 Ke6 52. d7 Rxd7 53. Rb6+ Ke5 54. Rxa6 Rh7 55. Rd6 h3 56. Rd1 h2 57. Rh1 Ke6 58. a6 Rh3 59. a7 Ra3 60. Rxh2 Rxa7 61. Rh6+ 1-0

I tried to insert a diagram here (position after 35...Kc6) but failed.

Anyway, I recently lost a rook endgame in an online game and I was so impressed with my opponent's play that I've blogged about it.

It's here if anyone is interested...
http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/2018/02/030-not-all-rook-endgames-are-drawn.h...
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo