Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 2875 times)
Confused_by_Theory
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 309
Location: Europe
Joined: 05/13/15
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #24 - 02/17/18 at 06:18:34
Post Tools
Hi.

MNb wrote on 02/16/18 at 08:21:32:
As a fan of the Argentinean Attack I'm afraid your suggestion doesn't make my day particularly nice. 12...Nxh7 13.Qxh7 Qg5 gives Black fine compensation as the white Queen is totally offside.
Note that Kasparov, who understood a few things about these matters, against Radjabov in 2002 preferred 8.Nf3 Nbd7 9.O-O-O instead. White has won almost every single game from here, which casts more doubt on ...Nbd7. It also explains Marin's "...Bxh6 is way too cooperative". Unlike Marin I maintain though that "castling into it combined with ...Nbd7" is about as risky (ie extremely), so all in all I'd welcome my opponents playing 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7.

If we go towards the topic of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 (or 4.Bg5/4.Bf4) 4...Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5
I will just note that there is a fair bit of related analysis in the 4.Bg5 megathread.

When it comes to move orders:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Qe7
Is probably best, in order to keep Bg4 a possibility should white keep the central tension with for example 9.0-0-0. As I recall 8...Nbd7 had some definite point over 8...Qe7 if white went 9.dxe5 but that 9.0-0-0 now led to not so fun looking positions for black so... go Kasparov!

In:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3
I gave the knight move, 9...Nbd7, briefly remembering there could be some point behind waiting with the queen. In fairness there are some small things going for 9...Qe7 as well. It should be more of a preference matter here though as compared to the position after 8.Nf3.


If there is renewed interest, some months ago I remember having a realisation somewhere when I rechecked the 7...e5 analysis I posted in the 4.Bg5 thread. Will probably get back about that. Been quit busy so haven't followed up at all. Maybe later today.

Have a nice day.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
Senior Member
****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 268
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #23 - 02/16/18 at 16:50:34
Post Tools
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.Bd3 (6.f3!?) 6...Bg7 was suggested.

A. 7.Bh6 I think is best. Other 7th moves might lead to 150-ish positions where the Bf4 is misplaced...

B. 7.Nf3 Bg4 8.O-O O-O 9.a4 b4 10.Ne2 a5 11.c3 Nbd7!? 12.cxb4 axb4 13.Qxb4 (the computer doesn't want this P, but I need to be shown) 13...c5! 14.Qd2 cxd4 15.Nexd4 Nc5 black has good play but white can probably hold on with 16.Bb5.

C. 7.h3 Nbd7 (7...e5? 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Bxe5 Nxe4 10.Qf4 +-) 8.Nf3 O-O (8...e5? 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Bxe5 Nxe4 12.Bxe4 +-) 9.O-O e5! 10.dxe5 (the engine suggests 10.Bg5, but this would obviously label Bf4 as inaccurate) 10...Nxe5 11.Nxe5 dxe5 12.Bxe5 Nxe4 =
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10199
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #22 - 02/16/18 at 08:21:32
Post Tools
I had no clue that you were talking about 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.O-O-O Qa5 and yes I think White has better than 8.Bxg7. In your own words: exchanging bishops is way too cooperative. For instance 8.O-O-O immediately scores 70% in my database (and adding 8...Qa5 hardly makes things better).  Indeed Black must have an answer ready to 8.e5 as well.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/15/18 at 23:09:53:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Nbd7 10.Bc4(!) Qe7 11.Ng5 Rf8 12.Nxh7

Have a nice day.


As a fan of the Argentinean Attack I'm afraid your suggestion doesn't make my day particularly nice. 12...Nxh7 13.Qxh7 Qg5 gives Black fine compensation as the white Queen is totally offside.
Note that Kasparov, who understood a few things about these matters, against Radjabov in 2002 preferred 8.Nf3 Nbd7 9.O-O-O instead. White has won almost every single game from here, which casts more doubt on ...Nbd7. It also explains Marin's "...Bxh6 is way too cooperative". Unlike Marin I maintain though that "castling into it combined with ...Nbd7" is about as risky (ie extremely), so all in all I'd welcome my opponents playing 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7.


Neither does your other suggestion make my day particularly nice:

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/15/18 at 23:09:53:
I'm thinking that if for example:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5
we would get a position similar to:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5


I opine that Bd3 is quite a lame bishop here, especially if White decides to exchange pawns on e5. There are quite some bad bishop scenarios hiding around the corner. I'd prefer to look at other moves than 7.Bh6 (in the first quoted line). I have no idea if in Black's best lines of the 150-Attack the bishop could be better on f4 than on e3. If I feel like (and that can be doubtful)  I will try to figure it out next few days. White might also consider 7.a4 or the neutral but not useless 7.h3. Play will be positional; again the question rises where the bishop is best placed, on e3 or f4.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pawnpusher
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 25
Joined: 01/04/18
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #21 - 02/15/18 at 23:45:54
Post Tools
Aren't we talking about 1e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Bf4 c6 5 Qd2 Nbd7 6 Nf3 Bg7 7 Bh6 0-0 8 Bg7 Kg7 9 0-0-0 Qa5?
Or does 9 e5 make that much difference?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Confused_by_Theory
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 309
Location: Europe
Joined: 05/13/15
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #20 - 02/15/18 at 23:09:53
Post Tools
Hi again.

I checked some lines this morning. Mainly 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5 but also briefly 5...b5 again.

It struck me that after 5...b5 6.Bd3 there is a serious risk indeed that black will be subjected to a harmful Bh6 treatment at some point. If he goes directly 6...Bg7 though there seems to arise a position where 7.Nf3 could quite reasonably be met by 7...Bg4 and 7.Bh6, seemingly the other remaining natural move, is perhaps not totally drawback free either.

I'm thinking that if for example:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5
we would get a position similar to:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5

And well... ok. This is perhaps nothing obviously super-major. The small difference of Bd3 and b5 being inserted probably means that white will have some difficulty implementing the pawn snaffling idea seen in the below sequence though and this should be welcome from black's point of view since it does appear a critical way to challenge black.
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Nbd7 10.Bc4(!) Qe7 11.Ng5 Rf8 12.Nxh7

Have a nice day.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10199
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #19 - 02/15/18 at 20:49:52
Post Tools
Still answering 7.Bh6 with Qa5 loses a piece, so it's totally unclear what line you're talking about that's supposed to come close to equal.
Compare page 1, the last two comments.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pawnpusher
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 25
Joined: 01/04/18
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #18 - 02/15/18 at 20:33:17
Post Tools
But  Marin seems to think taking the bishop on h6 is way too cooperative, and putting the queen on a5 does seem to come close to equal at least according to the live database (Chessbase).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Online


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1430
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #17 - 02/15/18 at 12:32:01
Post Tools
Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/15/18 at 11:24:51:
and the ever so true "the Pirc is really hard to play" adage.


and the "if I could go back 30 years and pick another opening" adage  Roll Eyes
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Confused_by_Theory
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 309
Location: Europe
Joined: 05/13/15
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #16 - 02/15/18 at 11:24:51
Post Tools
Hello.

mn wrote on 02/15/18 at 10:22:17:
6...Qa5 seems more consistent with the whole "leave the Bishop on f8 for as long as possible" philosophy.

Maybe there is also the "let's keep Bg4 a possibility" doctrine to take into account though...

and the ever so true "the Pirc is really hard to play" adage. Grin

Have a nice day.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mn
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 269
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #15 - 02/15/18 at 10:22:17
Post Tools
6...Qa5 seems more consistent with the whole "leave the Bishop on f8 for as long as possible" philosophy.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Confused_by_Theory
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 309
Location: Europe
Joined: 05/13/15
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #14 - 02/15/18 at 10:07:41
Post Tools
Hey.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/07/18 at 05:08:12:
Found the game, but my memory was not perfect. I thought it would be the game Stutz - Wolff, but it was a later game where Wolff tried it as white.

Thank you for posting. Full games are always interesting.


Pawnpusher wrote on 02/11/18 at 21:15:09:
Marin likes 4..c6 5 Qd2 Nbd7 then 6 Nf3 and finally Bg7 his analysis looks at 7 0-0-0 Qa5 then eiher 8 Kb1 and 8 e5.
MNb wrote on 02/12/18 at 07:21:39:
Does Marin look at 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 as well? This looks like a favourable (for White) version of the 150 Attack. Plus White can play 6.O-O-O immediately, as ...e5 just loses.

More about 4.Bf4 in this thread:


http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1463055561/45#45

7.Bh6 should be the move indeed since in terms of move sequences both:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 0-0 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.e5 dxe5 10.dxe5 Ng4 11.0-0-0
and
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 Qa5 9.0-0-0
Look at least slightly better for white.

More solid (and probably better) ways of playing:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 0-0 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.e5 Nd5
and
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5
Are also not really easy for black.


Have a nice day.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10199
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #13 - 02/15/18 at 06:58:12
Post Tools
I doubt if the results after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Qa5? 8.Bxg7 are about 50%. Instead I rather bet you searched for another position.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pawnpusher
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 25
Joined: 01/04/18
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #12 - 02/15/18 at 02:14:30
Post Tools
When I look at the my live database more people aren't playing Bxh6 isn't that way too cooperative? After Qa5 the numbers are much different about 50%.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10199
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #11 - 02/14/18 at 06:57:09
Post Tools
Still, 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Nbd7 8.Nf3 is an important weapon for White and 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 just transposes. Given the fact that White wins more than half of the games the expression "a lot less force" sounds a bit peculiar, if not ironic to me. Castling into it is not without any danger either.
Btw positional players may argue that 7.h3 (iso 7.Bh6) is a good version of the Classical.
If this is the best Black can do the conclusion is that 4.Bf4 is superior to 4.Be3. Those who'd rather play 4.Be3 c6 as Black won't be happy.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pawnpusher
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 25
Joined: 01/04/18
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #10 - 02/13/18 at 20:38:53
Post Tools
edit that should of course say Bh6 until the 9th or 10th move.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo