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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 4877 times)
Pawnpusher
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #18 - 02/15/18 at 20:33:17
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But  Marin seems to think taking the bishop on h6 is way too cooperative, and putting the queen on a5 does seem to come close to equal at least according to the live database (Chessbase).
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #17 - 02/15/18 at 12:32:01
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/15/18 at 11:24:51:
and the ever so true "the Pirc is really hard to play" adage.


and the "if I could go back 30 years and pick another opening" adage  Roll Eyes
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #16 - 02/15/18 at 11:24:51
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Hello.

mn wrote on 02/15/18 at 10:22:17:
6...Qa5 seems more consistent with the whole "leave the Bishop on f8 for as long as possible" philosophy.

Maybe there is also the "let's keep Bg4 a possibility" doctrine to take into account though...

and the ever so true "the Pirc is really hard to play" adage. Grin

Have a nice day.
  
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mn
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #15 - 02/15/18 at 10:22:17
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6...Qa5 seems more consistent with the whole "leave the Bishop on f8 for as long as possible" philosophy.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #14 - 02/15/18 at 10:07:41
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Hey.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/07/18 at 05:08:12:
Found the game, but my memory was not perfect. I thought it would be the game Stutz - Wolff, but it was a later game where Wolff tried it as white.

Thank you for posting. Full games are always interesting.


Pawnpusher wrote on 02/11/18 at 21:15:09:
Marin likes 4..c6 5 Qd2 Nbd7 then 6 Nf3 and finally Bg7 his analysis looks at 7 0-0-0 Qa5 then eiher 8 Kb1 and 8 e5.
MNb wrote on 02/12/18 at 07:21:39:
Does Marin look at 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 as well? This looks like a favourable (for White) version of the 150 Attack. Plus White can play 6.O-O-O immediately, as ...e5 just loses.

More about 4.Bf4 in this thread:


http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1463055561/45#45

7.Bh6 should be the move indeed since in terms of move sequences both:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 0-0 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.e5 dxe5 10.dxe5 Ng4 11.0-0-0
and
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 Qa5 9.0-0-0
Look at least slightly better for white.

More solid (and probably better) ways of playing:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 0-0 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.e5 Nd5
and
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5
Are also not really easy for black.


Have a nice day.

  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #13 - 02/15/18 at 06:58:12
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I doubt if the results after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Qa5? 8.Bxg7 are about 50%. Instead I rather bet you searched for another position.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #12 - 02/15/18 at 02:14:30
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When I look at the my live database more people aren't playing Bxh6 isn't that way too cooperative? After Qa5 the numbers are much different about 50%.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #11 - 02/14/18 at 06:57:09
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Still, 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Nbd7 8.Nf3 is an important weapon for White and 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 just transposes. Given the fact that White wins more than half of the games the expression "a lot less force" sounds a bit peculiar, if not ironic to me. Castling into it is not without any danger either.
Btw positional players may argue that 7.h3 (iso 7.Bh6) is a good version of the Classical.
If this is the best Black can do the conclusion is that 4.Bf4 is superior to 4.Be3. Those who'd rather play 4.Be3 c6 as Black won't be happy.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #10 - 02/13/18 at 20:38:53
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edit that should of course say Bh6 until the 9th or 10th move.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #9 - 02/13/18 at 20:37:20
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He discussed 6 0-0-0 and gives Qa5 7e5 dxe5 8 dxe5 Nh5 and then says e6 but that white just gets enough for the pawn. He states that after Nf3 Bh6 has a lot less force, so really he believes there is no hurry for Bh6. both of the lines he covers don't have Bh5 until the 9th or 10th move. He also says this can happen from the 4 Be3 lines too, so there may be more transpositions.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #8 - 02/12/18 at 07:21:39
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Does Marin look at 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 as well? This looks like a favourable (for White) version of the 150 Attack. Plus White can play 6.O-O-O immediately, as ...e5 just loses.

More about 4.Bf4 in this thread:


http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1463055561/45#45



  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #7 - 02/11/18 at 21:15:09
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Marin likes 4..c6 5 Qd2 Nbd7 then 6 Nf3 and finally Bg7 his analysis looks at 7 0-0-0 Qa5 then eiher 8 Kb1 and 8 e5.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #6 - 02/07/18 at 17:53:32
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Stigma wrote on 02/07/18 at 14:21:49:
[quote author=13103C5E0 link=1517943784/4#4 date=1518004404] So if White combines 4.Bf4 against the Pirc with, say, 4.f4, 4.g3 or some form of Classical against the Modern, he in effect has to know two full repertoires against the Pirc


Yeah, but that's nothing special. It doesn't make much sense to combine the QDG against 1.d4 with the KID against 1.c4 either. And there are many more examples.

Though I haven known someone who as Black combined the Najdorf (and not with ...Nc6) with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6, allowing the Richter Rauser.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #5 - 02/07/18 at 14:21:49
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MNb wrote on 02/07/18 at 11:53:24:
No matter what you play against the Pirc, as long as Black refuses to play ...Nf6 you need something independent.

That's true, but Black Modern players have the option of transposing to the Pirc against many White tries. So if White combines 4.Bf4 against the Pirc with, say, 4.f4, 4.g3 or some form of Classical against the Modern, he in effect has to know two full repertoires against the Pirc (unless he's bluffing).

Therefore some other choices against the Modern are more natural partners for the 4.Bf4 Pirc:

- 4.Be3, since if Black transposes the Pirc, he has made the concession of losing the 4.Be3 c6 and 4.Be3 a6 options where he delays ...Bg7

- 3.c3 intending Bd3, since if Black continues in Pirc style, he has lost Pirc-only options like 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bd3 e5 (a main line) and the more offbeat 3...c5 and 3...d5

- 3.c4 (if happy with a KID) and 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bc4 (as in Shaw's 1.e4 book), since these lines are independent of the Pirc

P.S.: I have just accepted an ordinary chessplayer's underlying assumption that 4.Bf4 is no good against the Modern. I guess some ...Nc6 line or "Tiger's Modern" style must be fine for Black.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #4 - 02/07/18 at 11:53:24
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1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nf6 6.Bh6 will transpose.
No matter what you play against the Pirc, as long as Black refuses to play ...Nf6 you need something independent.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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