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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort) (Read 495 times)
ReneDescartes
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #22 - 02/14/18 at 19:46:21
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/14/18 at 14:28:54:
Karpfenkopf wrote on 02/14/18 at 06:59:58:
ReneDescartes wrote about blitz chess.
Actually he wrote "a game where, in blitz ...". Someone who is casual about language might have been talking about a blitz game. ReneDescartes is not casual about language. Ergo, this was not a blitz game but a longer game. He confirmed this in a later post.

Similarly I knew that the "normal" in his expression "normal arbiter" was significant, but he didn't like my joke. No doubt the incident still rankles, understandably so.


Thanks; the incident was very unpleasant, yes. I thought the point of your joke was to remind me that arbiters have discretion--if you meant that arbiters were abnormal, that was funny (doubly so under the circumstances). Also, you're giving me too much credit: though I am not casual with language (language and I don't know each other that well), I was unaware of the blitz exception to the normal-means rule.
« Last Edit: 02/15/18 at 02:09:56 by ReneDescartes »  
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gwnn
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #21 - 02/14/18 at 15:17:09
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/14/18 at 14:28:54:
Karpfenkopf wrote on 02/14/18 at 06:59:58:
ReneDescartes wrote about blitz chess.


@gwnn - I'm still thinking about "normal means". Sleeping on it helped a little, I have some new ideas this morning. brabo in Reply #7 gave a good example with his son. I am still trying to integrate that with my thoughts on the issue as a whole.

Do you have an Amazon link to the book? I'd like to pre-order it.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #20 - 02/14/18 at 14:28:54
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Karpfenkopf wrote on 02/14/18 at 06:59:58:
ReneDescartes wrote about blitz chess.
Actually he wrote "a game where, in blitz ...". Someone who is casual about language might have been talking about a blitz game. ReneDescartes is not casual about language. Ergo, this was not a blitz game but a longer game. He confirmed this in a later post.

Similarly I knew that the "normal" in his expression "normal arbiter" was significant, but he didn't like my joke. No doubt the incident still rankles, understandably so.

@gwnn - I'm still thinking about "normal means". Sleeping on it helped a little, I have some new ideas this morning. brabo in Reply #7 gave a good example with his son. I am still trying to integrate that with my thoughts on the issue as a whole.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #19 - 02/14/18 at 12:05:21
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The player who restarted the clock was, as I was later told, himself an arbiter. He knew it was wrong. This was poor sportsmanship, not ignorance.
  
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Straggler
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #18 - 02/14/18 at 11:59:36
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It's not surprising that someone would restart the clock if they don't know that you're entitled to stop it; and many supposedly serious players are lamentably ignorant of the rules.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #17 - 02/14/18 at 11:29:03
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Being ground on time with Ks&Rs and having my clock restarted when I sought the arbiter (I had to get up for that)--these have happened to me in a long time control. Finding my clock run down was disgusting. The arbiter was not normal in that he was inexperienced, whatever else he was. The situation was a mess. I don't want to give more details because I don't want to identify anyone involved.
  
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brabo
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #16 - 02/14/18 at 07:18:01
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gwnn wrote on 02/14/18 at 06:49:18:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/14/18 at 03:15:30:
If my opponent restarts the clock, which is highly likely, stop it again and move it out of his reach.

Really? I wouldn't consider this at all likely. Do people really restart the clock when their opponents stop it?

Unfortunately I also witnessed such behavior. To avoid those conflicts I prefer to play tournaments with an increment.
  
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Karpfenkopf
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #15 - 02/14/18 at 06:59:58
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ReneDescartes wrote about blitz chess.

We have Guidlines III.2.2 in the 2018 rules (just the same as appendix G3 in the old 2014 rules):
Quote:
This Appendix shall only apply to standard play and rapidplay games without increment and not to blitz games.


So the "normal" arbiter would very likely not accept any claims based on III.4 / III.5.


But one could try anyway. The worst thing could happen is that the opponent gets two extra minutes. And as always the draw claim is also a draw offer. The  arbiter should ask and the opponent could accept that.
  
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gwnn
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #14 - 02/14/18 at 06:49:18
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/14/18 at 03:15:30:
If my opponent restarts the clock, which is highly likely, stop it again and move it out of his reach.

Really? I wouldn't consider this at all likely. Do people really restart the clock when their opponents stop it?
  
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brabo
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #13 - 02/14/18 at 05:59:37
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/13/18 at 18:57:54:
@brabo - Why would you question the moves?

Just read the article and more specific the statement: "Therefore I propose a reasoned conclusion: if there is no evidence of Fritz 6a making any attempt to maneuver into a winning position by move 70 (Fritz need not reach a won position, merely maneuver toward it), the game will be adjudicated as drawn. This is in accordance with the purposes set forth for this match. After all, even a weak chess player operating the chess engine would see by move 70 whether or not any progress is being made toward victory. If not, it is reasonable to conclude that a draw would be accepted."
That is completely contradicting the end of the game which lasts longer than move 70.

It has been almost 2 decades that this game was played. I still remember very well many of the details but I don't see this as relevant in this discussion.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #12 - 02/14/18 at 03:15:30
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Sorry, ReneDescartes, I should have put a smiley after my previous answer. Smiley

ReneDescartes wrote on 02/13/18 at 16:31:22:
What should I do if my opponent tries to do this to me and the arbiter isn't looking?

Under 6.12b you have the right to stop the clock in order to summon the arbiter. What I would do is:
  • Note the time remaining on my clock. If this is in dispute, I want to be convincing as to the correct number (see next point about the clock being restarted).
  • Stop the clock. If my opponent restarts the clock, which is highly likely, stop it again and move it out of his reach.
  • Say to my opponent, “I am stopping the clock in order to summon the arbiter.”
  • Find a way to summon the arbiter without leaving my opponent alone with the clock, e.g. by waving, by having a spectator fetch the arbiter, by having my opponent accompany me. The reason for this is that my claim will surely be denied if I have no time left, so I need to make sure the clock is not restarted in my absence.
  • Refrain from looking at the position while the arbiter is being summoned.
  • When the arbiter arrives, make my claim under G.4 or G.5.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #11 - 02/14/18 at 01:39:56
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ReneDescartes wrote on 02/14/18 at 01:30:13:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/13/18 at 17:34:45:
@ReneDescartes - I could not find "normal arbiter" in the glossary.

And I can't find a normal answer above. Whether or not there is a de facto consensus among arbiters about this, what do the other members recommend doing in the situation I asked about?


I would try to claim a draw; what's the worst that could happen?  You lose when you were going to lose on time anyway?
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #10 - 02/14/18 at 01:30:13
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/13/18 at 17:34:45:
@ReneDescartes - I could not find "normal arbiter" in the glossary.

And I can't find a normal answer above. Whether or not there is a de facto consensus among arbiters about this, what do the other members recommend doing in the situation I asked about?
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #9 - 02/13/18 at 18:57:54
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@brabo - Why would you question the moves? Ham makes the same point as you:
Quote:
As such, it is proof of a "bug" in Fritz 6a.

I am not so sure it's a bug. It could just be a programmer's design decision that seems unnatural to a competitive player.

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* Final position, after 73...Kb7-c8 (1/2-1/2)

It's one thing for a computer to recognize a three-fold repetition, it's another thing to avoid it. For a human, allowing a three-fold repetition here would be an error. For a program, it's complicated, because rejecting the top candidate involves a delta parameter over the second candidate, and another floor parameter on the second candidate. What parameters should be used? And if you keep iterating over the second-best candidate, you could "accidentally" find a win. More likely you will just get a 50-move draw instead. Worst case, you could even spiral into a loss. It just seems very complicated to program the draw avoidance.

In my opinion, only the programmer could say whether this was a bug. Even if the programmer made a change to later versions, to avoid the draw, it still might not be a bug in this version.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: "Cannot win by normal means" (or no effort)
Reply #8 - 02/13/18 at 18:20:41
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I am trying to formulate a coherent answer to gwnn's question about "normal means", but I want to sleep on it. For now I will point out the significance of the word "or" in the glossary definition:
  • A position where a player has no realistic chance of winning, but is playing in a positive manner to try to win, meets the definition of normal means.
  • A position where a player has a realistic chance of winning, but is not playing in a positive manner to try to win, meets the definition of normal means.
  
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