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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings (Read 6330 times)
BigTy
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #15 - 03/14/18 at 23:43:06
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IsaVulpes wrote on 03/14/18 at 13:30:28:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/14/18 at 12:08:11:
But to completely ignore a problematic variation simply because one’s opponents are unlikely to play it is a little too amateurish for me.

Did someone do that?

The OP planned to play 1.Nf3 instead of 1.e4 with the idea of transposing into the Sicilian and the Open Games where possible, and asked players for %ages of 1. ..Nc6 and 1. ..c5 to be able to tell if that ever actually happens. This "plan" would kind of pointless if nobody ever responded with either of those first moves to 1.Nf3, so it makes perfect sense to ask how often they appear on the board.

This wasn't about 'ignoring problematic variations' in the slightest, unless I missed some posts somewhere?!


Your interpretation of my intentions in my original post is completely correct.

I am not sure how this repertoire avoids problematic variations that are unlikely to occur after 1.Nf3... The idea was really to avoid problematic variations that occur after 1.e4, and maintain most of my 1.d4 repertoire active, as I transition towards playing 1.e4 in tournament games. In other words, I can focus on the Sicilian for now, while saving the French and Caro for later (in tournaments at least; online I will go for it regardless of how well I know the particular line). However, I plan to have a response to all of Black's possible defences after 1.Nf3.

I have been experimenting with 1.Nf3 this week in online blitz games, and mostly see 1...d5 or 1...Nf6, with a transition to 1.d4 openings, though sometimes 1...c5, but never 1...Nc6. The strangest thing I've seen was 1...Nf6 2.d4 b5!?, though I have trouble believing it is good.

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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #14 - 03/14/18 at 16:25:22
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IsaVulpes wrote on 03/14/18 at 13:30:28:
The OP planned to play 1.Nf3 instead of 1.e4 with the idea of transposing into the Sicilian and the Open Games where possible, and asked players for %ages of 1. ..Nc6 and 1. ..c5 to be able to tell if that ever actually happens.


People might be put off playing 1. .. Nc6 and 1. .. c5 if they didn't want to have to defend a Chigorin after 2. d4 and a symmetrical English after 2. c4 respectively. You might assume they would be OK with seeing 2. e4 in both cases.

The sequence 1. Nf3 Nc6 2. g3 e5 3. Bg2 d5 is very decent for Black particularly if White doesn't realise the dangers of defending a Pirc.

Playing White against a Chigorin doesn't require anything specialist unless you are trying to bust it. You just need an familiarity with where pieces go in d4, c4 openings.
  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #13 - 03/14/18 at 13:30:28
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/14/18 at 12:08:11:
But to completely ignore a problematic variation simply because one’s opponents are unlikely to play it is a little too amateurish for me.

Did someone do that?

The OP planned to play 1.Nf3 instead of 1.e4 with the idea of transposing into the Sicilian and the Open Games where possible, and asked players for %ages of 1. ..Nc6 and 1. ..c5 to be able to tell if that ever actually happens. This "plan" would kind of pointless if nobody ever responded with either of those first moves to 1.Nf3, so it makes perfect sense to ask how often they appear on the board.

This wasn't about 'ignoring problematic variations' in the slightest, unless I missed some posts somewhere?!
  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #12 - 03/14/18 at 12:08:11
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sim wrote on 03/13/18 at 12:39:26:
Apparently the (1.Nf3) Nc6 answering opponents wanted to play Nc6 against KIA/Colle systems more than anything else, and didn't know any Chigorin theory, because 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.c4 e6 and 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.c4 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 were the most played lines in my games with white (6%!).
Maybe they weren’t worried about it because a low percentage of whites played 2.d4 against them.

This whole exercise of looking at response frequencies makes me cringe. It’s okay to use that number to decide how to apportion our study time (*). But to completely ignore a problematic variation simply because one’s opponents are unlikely to play it is a little too amateurish for me.

Edited:
(*) I mean, to apportion our time between equally promising candidates ...
  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #11 - 03/13/18 at 12:39:26
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I used a comparable repertoire for a while, also starting with 1.Nf3. I used it for blitz, which means against low rated opponents (1300-1500 on chess.com mostly).

12,3% answered 1... c5
9,9 answerend 1... Nc6

Apparently the Nc6 answering opponents wanted to play Nc6 against KIA/Colle systems more than anything else, and didn't know any Chigorin theory, because 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.c4 e6 and 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.c4 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 were the most played lines in my games with white (6%!). I started to call this the lame Chigorin. Nobody played 3... Bg4 at this level. This still feels like a fluke statistically, but it happened time and again. I just stopped expecting 3... Bg4.

I really enjoyed this 1.Nf3 repertoire, and I think the only reason I switched back to 1.e4 is because there was a moment where I decided I wanted to get more queenless middlegames.
  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #10 - 03/09/18 at 01:36:45
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I think your strategy is good given your goals. It's just plain fun having a move-ordering system steering the game into your favorite main lines while avoiding stuff you don't like.
« Last Edit: 03/09/18 at 11:22:28 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #9 - 03/08/18 at 23:53:29
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JEH wrote on 03/08/18 at 07:20:59:
BigTy wrote on 03/08/18 at 00:43:38:
Finally, for those of you who play 1.Nf3, how often do your opponents actually respond with 1...c5 and 1...Nc6?


1.Nf3   c5 : 39/357 = 10.9%
1.Nf3 Nc6 : 10/357 =   2.8%

I wonder how many Sicilian players actually use 1. Nf3 c5  Questioning

Going Nc6 involves Black having a repertoire including 1. e4 e5 and the Chigorin which isn't that common but is a nice combo.


Thinking this over, maybe 10.9% 1...c5 is not so bad, especially when you think of how many openings are possible after 1...Nf6 or 1...d5. I played a few blitz games yesterday with 1.Nf3 and if I recall, I got 1...c5 in at least two of them.

The downside really is perhaps keeping up with Ruy Lopez theory to get to play it not even 3% of the time. Black is not even forced to play 2...e5, and I know players who prefer 2...Nf6, transposing to an Alekhine, for instance. It is probably more practical to invite a Chigorin defence with 2.d4, but speaking from my experience with 1.d4/2.c4 I hardly ever see that (a two knights tango or 1...Nc6 2.c4 2...e5 even seem more common).

I am a Sicilian player, and these days I never play 1...c5 as a response to 1.Nf3. I used to, but in my experience most players follow up with 2.c4, which I find kind of dry. Grin
  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #8 - 03/08/18 at 23:42:08
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Stigma wrote on 03/08/18 at 03:38:49:
I mostly use 1.Nf3 as a surprise weapon and when I can be fairly sure of my opponent's response (based on their games in the database). I might be happy to play the White side of:

1.Nf3 c5 2.e4: Especially if I my opponent has alternative defence(s) to 1.e4 that are avoided this way

1.Nf3 f5, 1.Nf3 e6 or 1.Nf3 d6: Many Dutch players have several defences to 1.d4, but can be "forced" to play the Dutch by starting with 1.Nf3 (or in some cases 1.g3)

1.Nf3 g6 2.e4: Some KID and Grünfeld players prefer this move order but might be less ready for White to actually switch to e4. Requires some knowledge of the Accelerated/Hyper-accelerated Dragon, Pirc and Modern.

1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 or 2.b3!? to get out of the 1.d4 main lines against especially booked-up Queen's Gambit defenders (whether QGD, QGA, Slav or Semi-Slav)

Have you consider taking the same "play the man" attitude to 1.Nf3? It has worked quite well for me.


I see what you mean, but I am actually thinking of taking a more 'play the man' attitude towards 1.e4/1.d4.

For instance, if I know my opponent is a KID/French player, I will probably just play 1.d4 because I feel like my play is stronger against the KID than the French, especially if I get to play the Saemisch. Likewise,  if my opponent is a Sicilian/QGA player, then 1.e4 for me is preferable -- not because it is easier to get an edge aganst the Sicilian, but because it usually leads to the kinds of positions I like better.

My idea with 1.Nf3 is to play it against opponents who I don't know, or those who are unpredictable. I would lose some options like the Saemisch KID, but I could also avoid a lot of annoying lines and have better chances of playing a variation I am comfortable in or fond of... At least that is the idea, though one could argue that it is more practical to just pick 1.e4 or 1.d4 and fix/learn better the variations which I don't like so much.

  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #7 - 03/08/18 at 07:20:59
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BigTy wrote on 03/08/18 at 00:43:38:
Finally, for those of you who play 1.Nf3, how often do your opponents actually respond with 1...c5 and 1...Nc6?


1.Nf3   c5 : 39/357 = 10.9%
1.Nf3 Nc6 : 10/357 =   2.8%

I wonder how many Sicilian players actually use 1. Nf3 c5  Questioning

Going Nc6 involves Black having a repertoire including 1. e4 e5 and the Chigorin which isn't that common but is a nice combo.
  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #6 - 03/08/18 at 04:55:20
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I play the KIA from both 1. e4 and 1. Nf3, so I can and do play

1. Nf3 c5   2. e4
1. Nf3 Nc6 2. e4

However I go

1. Nf3 d5  2. g3

I have considered adding

1. Nf3 d5  2. d4 at some point to add some d4 knowledge, but have never got around to it.
« Last Edit: 03/08/18 at 07:15:55 by JEH »  
Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #5 - 03/08/18 at 03:38:49
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I mostly use 1.Nf3 as a surprise weapon and when I can be fairly sure of my opponent's response (based on their games in the database). I might be happy to play the White side of:

1.Nf3 c5 2.e4: Especially if I my opponent has alternative defence(s) to 1.e4 that are avoided this way

1.Nf3 f5, 1.Nf3 e6 or 1.Nf3 d6: Many Dutch players have several defences to 1.d4, but can be "forced" to play the Dutch by starting with 1.Nf3 (or in some cases 1.g3)

1.Nf3 g6 2.e4: Some KID and Grünfeld players prefer this move order but might be less ready for White to actually switch to e4. Requires some knowledge of the Accelerated/Hyper-accelerated Dragon, Pirc and Modern.

1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 or 2.b3!? to get out of the 1.d4 main lines against especially booked-up Queen's Gambit defenders (whether QGD, QGA, Slav or Semi-Slav)

Have you consider taking the same "play the man" attitude to 1.Nf3? It has worked quite well for me.
  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #4 - 03/08/18 at 03:04:36
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TD wrote on 03/08/18 at 02:48:12:
BigTy wrote on 03/08/18 at 00:43:38:
Finally, for those of you who play 1.Nf3, how often do your opponents actually respond with 1...c5 and 1...Nc6?

1.Nf3 c5 : 44/372 = 12%
1.Nf3 Nc6 : 13/372 = 3,5%


That's not too encouraging... Undecided
  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #3 - 03/08/18 at 02:48:12
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BigTy wrote on 03/08/18 at 00:43:38:
Finally, for those of you who play 1.Nf3, how often do your opponents actually respond with 1...c5 and 1...Nc6?

1.Nf3 c5 : 44/372 = 12%
1.Nf3 Nc6 : 13/372 = 3,5%
  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #2 - 03/08/18 at 02:23:05
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LeeRoth wrote on 03/08/18 at 01:34:29:
I tried something like this when I was first switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4.  After 1.Nf3, I didn’t see 1..c5 very often, and when I did it was usually because Black was a true Sicilian fanatic.  After a few of those games, I started questioning the wisdom of allowing these maniacs to play their favorite defense, rather than forcing them to play a d4 defense they may not have studied as much. 

So I switched to 1.d4/2.Nf3.  My main issues were with the Benoni and KID.  I played a Bf4 system against the Benoni and the Makaganov against the Kings Indian.  One of the main reasons I later switched to 1.d4/2.c4 was to be able to play the Flick-Knife and Sämisch.  I also wanted to play the Nge2 Exchange vs the QGD. 

In moving to 1.d4/2.c4, I was also influenced by a friend who questioned why I was trying to avoid things like the Albin and the Budapest, rather than inviting them. Wink

The main downside in moving to 1.d4/2.c4 turned out to be the Benko, which was very popular at the time.  I generally played the main, accepted line, but on days I didn’t feel up to the pressure, I trotted out 4.Nf3.


I am currently switching back from 1.d4 to 1.e4, though without giving up 1.d4 completely, and it has been really tough due to my desire and stubborness to play challenging mainlines! I guess my idea is therefore to be able to focus on, say, the Sicilian while not having to worry about the French and Caro for now, but if few players actually play 1...c5, then I won't be able to put my study into practice... I guess I will try it online and see what happens.

I agree with you via the KID/Benoni problem. The best and most interesting lines seem to involve an early movement of the f-pawn. Maybe if I know my opponent well enough to know his/her repertoire, I will just play 1.d4 when expecting such a response.

I am okay against the Albin, Budapest, and Benko, but being able to just not worry about them might be an added bonus against some players. It is really the QGA that gives me some trouble if I cannot remember the sharp lines during the game (I play 3.e4).

Above all, though, I really want to play Open Sicilians with both colours. I have a good feel for them, and love the attacks and counter-attacks that come about, win or lose. It is strange, perhaps, but I feel like 1.d4 suits me better with the exception of the Open Sicilian.

Perhaps there is something to be said for walking around the tournament hall during the opening phase to see what potential opponents are playing, so that one knows whether to play 1.e4 or 1.d4 against them.
  
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Re: Using 1.Nf3 to play a mix of 1.e4/1.d4 openings
Reply #1 - 03/08/18 at 01:34:29
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I tried something like this when I was first switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4.  After 1.Nf3, I didn’t see 1..c5 very often, and when I did it was usually because Black was a true Sicilian fanatic.  After a few of those games, I started questioning the wisdom of allowing these maniacs to play their favorite defense, rather than forcing them to play a d4 defense they may not have studied as much. 

So I switched to 1.d4/2.Nf3.  My main issues were with the Benoni and KID.  I played a Bf4 system against the Benoni and the Makaganov against the Kings Indian.  One of the main reasons I later switched to 1.d4/2.c4 was to be able to play the Flick-Knife and Sämisch.  I also wanted to play the Nge2 Exchange vs the QGD. 

In moving to 1.d4/2.c4, I was also influenced by a friend who questioned why I was trying to avoid things like the Albin and the Budapest, rather than inviting them. Wink

The main downside in moving to 1.d4/2.c4 turned out to be the Benko, which was very popular at the time.  I generally played the main, accepted line, but on days I didn’t feel up to the pressure, I trotted out 4.Nf3.
  
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