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Normal Topic Move Order Idea to combat London + GM Rep 11 (Read 1062 times)
BeeCaves
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Re: Move Order Idea to combat London + GM Rep 11
Reply #5 - 03/10/18 at 22:17:55
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TD wrote on 03/09/18 at 15:30:39:
BeeCaves wrote on 03/09/18 at 15:12:59:
4... Nc6 5 c3 Bf5 6 Nf3 e6 7 Nbd2

Maybe 7.Qb3 first?


Yes, maybe Qb3 on some move is a good option for White at some point, although I think Black can just play ...Qd7 in response and still might be happy to not have his Knight on f6 yet (although at least for White now the Black Queen doesn't cover h4).

For example, these lines aren't forced at all for either side, but compare:

Line A based on Avrukh:
1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 Nf6 3 e3 c5 4 c3 Nc6 5 Nd2 cxd4 6 exd4 Bf5 7 Ngf3 e6 8 Qb3 Qc8 9 Nh4 Be4 10 Nxe4 Nxe4 11 Nf3 Bd6 12 Bxd6 Nxd6 13 Bd3 0-0

Line B:
1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 cxd4 4 exd4 Nc6 5 c3 Bf5 6 Nf3 e6 7 Qb3 Qd7 8 Nh4 Nge7 9 Nxf5 (if 9 Nd2 then 9... Ng6) Nxf5 10 Nd2 Bd6 11 Bxd6 Nxd6 12 Bd3 0-0 13 Nf3

Black is basically a tempo up in Line B (with his queen on d7 instead of c8).
  
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Re: Move Order Idea to combat London + GM Rep 11
Reply #4 - 03/09/18 at 21:05:39
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As black after 1.d4 d5 I always answer 2.Bf4 with 2...c5. After 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd5 the game transposes to a quiet variation of the Caro-Kann. After 3.c3 I just go 3...cxd4 and I am happy on the black side of an Exchange Slav. You are right that the critical move is 3.e4. This was covered in the Norris (not Morris) Gambit thread: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1342332236

After 2.Nf3 again I answer with 2...c5. Again 3.e3 cxd4 4.exd5 transposes to the Caro-Kann, and may end up the same as 2.Bf4. The critical move is 3.c4, when the opening is not yet defined. It can become English, QGA, QGD Tarrasch, QGD Symmetrical, or Caro-Kann Panov.

As white I have played 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Nf3 a few times. Fischer also played this move once. White avoids the Hort-Bellon line, but after 4...Nc6 white's best move is 5.c4 and this Panov line is nowadays considered solid for black. Also 4...Nf6 is solid for black.

So basically I am happy to play this line with either color. Theoretically it's somewhere between equal and a tiny edge for white, but understanding counts for a lot. When I play the black side via the transposition, the white players are always befuddled and I often get an ideal QGD reversed, with a pull for black! A few players have gotten a draw against me there, the others have lost. When I play the white side, the black players who answer 4...Nf6 always know what to do and I don't get anything from the opening. The black players who answer 4...Nc6 get confused after 5.c4, and I get a big advantage. I have won every game after 5.c4, admittedly it's not many games.
  
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Re: Move Order Idea to combat London + GM Rep 11
Reply #3 - 03/09/18 at 17:45:59
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BeeCaves wrote on 03/09/18 at 15:12:59:
This got me thinking -- I'm an 1 e4 player, can I use this as an idea against the Caro Kann after 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 exd5 cxd5 4 Bf4 ?

It is definitely possible but Black has some additional options against this move order

The most important one is probably 4...g6 or 4...Nc6 and 5...g6.
I would advise you to also look at the QGD Exchange Variation as 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nc3 c6 6.Bf4 Bf5 7.e3 is almost the same with colors reversed.
  

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Re: Move Order Idea to combat London + GM Rep 11
Reply #2 - 03/09/18 at 15:37:09
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BeeCaves wrote on 03/09/18 at 15:12:59:
White can try to avoid it with something like 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 c5 3 c3 with the idea to recapture with the c pawn, but after 3... Nc6 4 e3 Bf5, he's stuck with a bit of a dilemma.  He can play 5 Nd2 but now 5... cxd4 is more likely to result in the e pawn recapture, since the Exchange Slav shouldn't be as strong with the Knight on d2 instead of c3 and the pawn on e3.  He can also play 5 Nf3 but now Black can play Bd6 soon without allowing the Bxd6, f4 "Stonewall without a Bad Bishop" setup that White often tries to delay the Ng1 development to aim for.

Maybe 5.Qb3 first?
  
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Re: Move Order Idea to combat London + GM Rep 11
Reply #1 - 03/09/18 at 15:30:39
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BeeCaves wrote on 03/09/18 at 15:12:59:
4... Nc6 5 c3 Bf5 6 Nf3 e6 7 Nbd2

Maybe 7.Qb3 first?
  
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Move Order Idea to combat London + GM Rep 11
03/09/18 at 15:12:59
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I was looking through Avrukh's GM Rep 11 on 1 d4 sidelines to try to prepare for the London, and one of the lines he advises is

1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 Nf6 3 e3 c5 4 c3 Nc6 5 Nd2 cxd4 6 exd4 Bf5 7 Ngf3 e6 8 Qb3 Qc8 9 Nh4 Be4 10 Nxe4 and then he considers both recaptures as options.

This line certainly seems playable for Black and doesn't seem like a bad option, but at the same time as I looked at the position more, it seemed like one that makes sense for white to aim for.  Playing around with Stockfish, it definitely seems to prefer White (how much depends what depth and lines but between +0.3 and +0.5 seems common).  Then checking the database, it looks like both Magnus and Kramnik have won games after 9 Nh4 -- Magnus against Wojtaszek at 2748.  Kamsky and Nisipeanu have had the position multiple times as White.

It struck me as a position where Black is very solid but if White is looking to play without a lot of theory and some chances to press for a small edge and grind, he's probably happy.

This got me thinking -- I'm an 1 e4 player, can I use this as an idea against the Caro Kann after 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 exd5 cxd5 4 Bf4 ?

It is definitely possible but Black has some additional options against this move order that I think make life a little easier for him.  After, say, something like:

4... Nc6 5 c3 Bf5 6 Nf3 e6 7 Nbd2

Black doesn't have to go Nf6 immediately.  With the knight undeveloped, for now, the Queen prevents Nh4 and White can't win the bishop pair.  In addition, in some lines ...Nge7 is a possibility, aiming to Nh4 with ...Ng6.  With Black's waiting move, he can consider ideas like 7... a6 to meet 8 Qb3 with 8...b5!? which the computer likes but Black prefers something more solid 7... Nge7 8 Nh4 Ng6 looks about equal and slightly "more equal" than Avrukh's line.

So, trying it from the Caro Kann move order is possible but I feel gives Black a slight improvement over Avrukh's version. 

Interestingly, Black can often force this position from the London version though too -- i.e. 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 cxd4 4 exd4 -- reaching the same position.  This allows 3 e4!? but probably this is something Black wants to allow if he's studied the lines.

Malakhov and Alekseenko both went for this idea as Black last year -- delaying ...Nf6 and reaching the position after 7 Nbd2 above, and both won games as Black, Malakhov playing 7... Bd6 and Alekseenko playing 7... a6

White can try to avoid it with something like 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 c5 3 c3 with the idea to recapture with the c pawn, but after 3... Nc6 4 e3 Bf5, he's stuck with a bit of a dilemma.  He can play 5 Nd2 but now 5... cxd4 is more likely to result in the e pawn recapture, since the Exchange Slav shouldn't be as strong with the Knight on d2 instead of c3 and the pawn on e3.  He can also play 5 Nf3 but now Black can play Bd6 soon without allowing the Bxd6, f4 "Stonewall without a Bad Bishop" setup that White often tries to delay the Ng1 development to aim for.

Thoughts?
    


  
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