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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Line against grob for black? (Read 1846 times)
RdC
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #23 - 09/09/18 at 07:51:29
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Hadron wrote on 09/09/18 at 01:30:59:
....somewhat moot. On which, why 6.Qxb7 ?


So that's the sequence 1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 c6 4. cxd5 cxd5 5. Qb3 Nf6 6. Nc3 .

In the games where this has been tried, Black carries on with a similar idea. So 6. .. e6 7. Qxb7 Nbd7.

Engine assessment is that Black is better. An alternative engine suggestion is to accept the loss of a pawn and play 7. h3
  
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Hadron
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #22 - 09/09/18 at 01:30:59
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LeeRoth wrote on 09/03/18 at 21:31:52:
4.cxd5 is no better according to Mikhalevski.  Black plays 4..cxd5 5.Qb3 Nf6 6.Qxb7 Nbd7 7.Nc3 (7.d4 Rb8 8.Qa6 e5 ) 7..e6 8.Nb5 (8.d4 Rb8) Rc8 with a strong initiative and a better game.

Ah O.K. If you say so, as I said I am not saying your right or wrong. I am only asking questions which renders....
LeeRoth wrote on 09/03/18 at 21:31:52:
Do you have an improvement on these lines that you would like to share?

....somewhat moot. On which, why 6.Qxb7 ?
Have a nice day  Smiley
HTH
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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LeeRoth
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #21 - 09/03/18 at 21:31:52
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Hadron wrote on 08/30/18 at 23:36:57:
LeeRoth wrote on 08/21/18 at 15:29:38:
1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 c6 4.Qb3 e6! 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Qxb7 Nd7 7.Nc3 Ne7 8.d4 Rb8


Ah.
Ok.
I am not going to say your right or wrong but one rather asks how does the above work if 4.cxd5 comes first?
Have a nice day
Hadron.
Smiley



4.cxd5 is no better according to Mikhalevski.  Black plays 4..cxd5 5.Qb3 Nf6 6.Qxb7 Nbd7 7.Nc3 (7.d4 Rb8 8.Qa6 e5 ) 7..e6 8.Nb5 (8.d4 Rb8) Rc8 with a strong initiative and a better game.

Do you have an improvement on these lines that you would like to share?

  
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #20 - 09/02/18 at 12:34:37
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kylemeister wrote on 09/02/18 at 05:00:09:
I see that that line from Horowitz or whomever was also treated as the main line (and as very good for Black) by Watson and Schiller in Taming Wild Chess Openings (2015), albeit via 4...cd 5. Qb3 Nf6 6. Nc3 e6.


I think it can be concluded that if the pawn on g4 is left en prise, then you take it and subsequently give it back and there are various ways of doing this seemingly to Black's advantage. Basman normally defends the pawn with 2. h3 .
  
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #19 - 09/02/18 at 05:00:09
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I see that that line from Horowitz or whomever was also treated as the main line (and as very good for Black) by Watson and Schiller in Taming Wild Chess Openings (2015), albeit via 4...cd 5. Qb3 Nf6 6. Nc3 e6.  (A note reads, "4...Nf6! is also very good, maybe even better, when Kosten gives 5. Qb3 Qd7 6. Nc3 cd 7. Nxd5 Nc6 'with free development.'  Then 8. Nxf6+ ef 9. Nf3 Bc5 or 9...0-0-0 10. 0-0 Bd6 with the idea ...Rhe8 might follow, with a substantial advantage for Black.")

Side notes:
--the two Horowitz works mentioned were among my earliest chess books as well.  I still have the 1964 "telephone book," as I have thought of it.
--I noticed that Mike Basman (who incidentally is the same age as the creature now occupying the top office in the US government) is slated to play next month in a tournament in the Netherlands (the Haarlem Masters).  What will it be as White:  the Grob, the Creepy Crawly, or ...?
  
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #18 - 09/02/18 at 02:49:55
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NCO (1999), page 9 (by Nunn) quotes Basman - Botterill, London Lloyds Bank 1979. The game can be found here:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1026265

Horowitz (1964) Chess Openings: Theory and Practice, pages 783-784 quotes Keres - Nieman (sic), correspondence 1934. The game (with commentary) can be found here:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1286129

Horowitz (Euwe?) gives as a black improvement the same line given by Whitehat1963 (Stockfish):
1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 c6 4.cxd5 Nf6 5.Nc3
(The reader should see for him/herself why 5.Qb3 cxd5 6.Qxb7 Nbd7 7.Bxd5? loses.)
5...cxd5
(instead of Niemann's 5...e5)
6.Qb3 e6 7.Qxb7 Nbd7 "-/+" (sic)
"If then 8.Nb5 Rc8!"
Bear in mind that Horowitz's -/+ could mean any of =/+ , -/+ , or -+. But in this case -/+ is probable.

I read somewhere that Horowitz subcontracted this manuscript to Euwe. If true, that would explain why I still like the book so much. IIRC, this was the third chess book I purchased, after Horowitz's New Traps in the Chess Opening, and Sutherland and Lommer's 1234 Modern End-game Studies.
  
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #17 - 09/02/18 at 00:34:24
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Quote:

1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 c6 4.Qb3 e6! 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Qxb7 Nd7 7.Nc3 Ne7 8.d4 Rb8 -/+


4. cxd5 cxd5 5. Qb3 could also be played after which 5. .. Nf6 introduces much the same idea.

You have to watch out for Qa4 check whilst the Bishop on g4 is undefended.

I used to think 2. .. Bxg4 was a mistake, but after Qb3 it seems that Black should defend the d5 pawn and abandon the b7 pawn as a counter sacrifice.
  
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #16 - 09/01/18 at 19:26:54
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Bibs wrote on 09/01/18 at 10:52:31:
Don't get overexcited - just play regular chess and be happy that, as black, the game is already on an equal basis. The small white starting edge has gone.

I don’t think black should be satisfied with equality against the Grob. There are others who share my opinion.

Quote:
The Spike ... comes closer to losing by force than any other first move. — John W. Collins, “How the Chess Openings Got their Names”, Chess Life (July 1965), quoted from Pandolfini, Best of Chess Life and Review, Volume 2, page 153

Quote:
After one move White has a lost position! — Roman Dzindzichashvili, in the analysis room at the 1989 World Open
  
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #15 - 09/01/18 at 10:52:31
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Dink Heckler wrote on 08/31/18 at 10:28:24:
Whatever the objective merits of the exchange sac line, surely this is giving White exactly the kind of unconventional mess they want when they play 1. g4. They want the red mist to descend over your eyes and have you try to refute their choice by force. They're also likely to have played this position far more often than you, so from a practical perspective, why not play a calm line that highlights the weakness of 1. g4. eg Mikhalevski's line.


Very much agree. Excellent advice.
Play calm, play sensibly. White is white, has played a couple of legal moves, and is not behind. Don't get overexcited - just play regular chess and be happy that, as black, the game is already on an equal basis. The small white starting edge has gone.
  
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #14 - 08/31/18 at 20:13:40
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Not sure. The one time I played white didn't even take on a8, went Qa4 x a7 and had his Q trapped on b7 on move 18.

I wouldn't read much into that mind you!
  
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #13 - 08/31/18 at 10:28:24
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Whatever the objective merits of the exchange sac line, surely this is giving White exactly the kind of unconventional mess they want when they play 1. g4. They want the red mist to descend over your eyes and have you try to refute their choice by force. They're also likely to have played this position far more often than you, so from a practical perspective, why not play a calm line that highlights the weakness of 1. g4. eg Mikhalevski's line.
  

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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #12 - 08/31/18 at 04:00:02
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Perhaps he meant to write 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 e6 4.Qb3 c6!.

Edited:
Er, wait, 3...e6 4.Qa4+ is inconvenient.
« Last Edit: 08/31/18 at 16:01:18 by an ordinary chessplayer »  
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #11 - 08/30/18 at 23:36:57
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LeeRoth wrote on 08/21/18 at 15:29:38:
1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 c6 4.Qb3 e6! 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Qxb7 Nd7 7.Nc3 Ne7 8.d4 Rb8


Ah.
Ok.
I am not going to say your right or wrong but one rather asks how does the above work if 4.cxd5 comes first?
Have a nice day
Hadron.
Smiley
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #10 - 08/21/18 at 15:29:38
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OK, I get that the OP wanted a "fun" line, but why sac an exchange when you can get a nice advantage playing sensible moves.

1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 c6 4.Qb3 e6! 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Qxb7 Nd7 7.Nc3 Ne7 8.d4 Rb8 -/+

This is Mikhalevski's main line, and Kislik, for one, claims that it is the refutation of the Grob. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wBUxzv04jY

  
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Re: Line against grob for black?
Reply #9 - 08/20/18 at 07:22:48
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These are the lines in my data base. I think it is copied from the Quality Chess book by V.Mikhalevsky. The problem is imo you have to remember something. If I haven't played it several times against a club member I forget it in two days, except the idea of giving the exchange and then the natural attack against the weak squares on the kingside follows. In 15/15 minute games or longer this is the right choice. In five minute games I prefer 1.g4 e5, keep calm, develop, counterattack.

As any first move is playable Grob's Attack lives from irrational moves and the desire to refute this. If you accept a slightly better play in move 15 or later it becomes a "boring" play for two results from the black side and a time consuming search for trouble and fight against the loss for white.

If you want "fun" you might try to get into this:
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
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