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Normal Topic Some Yurtaev Questions (Read 506 times)
mn
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Re: Some Yurtaev Questions
Reply #7 - 07/13/18 at 02:07:56
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I feel the same way, for the most part - against the Spanish I've mostly played the Keres (Chigorin with ...Nd7 and ...ed4) and the Marshall, both of which are pretty forcing and challenging (although admittedly the former might not be entirely sound), and against 1 d4 I'm playing a repertoire pretty similar to yours.

I've played the Breyer a decent amount in blitz and rapid (just to mix it up), and yeah, along the lines of what you said it's probably especially poorly suited for those time controls, because White's play tends to be much easier.

And re: the QGD, like Jan Gustafsson said in the intro to his Vienna series, there's not much reward for being good at the QGD.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Some Yurtaev Questions
Reply #6 - 07/12/18 at 16:25:01
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I think it all depends on your "style" and what you want with the White or Black pieces.  For me personally, the Breyer is exactly the kind of defense that I prefer the White side of.  Similar to the Catalan, White has slightly more space and slightly more active pieces.  Black will never be in very bad theoretical shape there, but White doesn't need to know a lot of theory (relatively speaking) to press for something. 

When I'm Black, I'd prefer to put the onus on White a little bit more to prove that he's done his homework and is well-prepared in whatever slightly offbeat line I choose.  In the past it was the Paulsen/Kan/Taimanov Sicilians and the Noteboom/Triangle, but they became popular and I eventually changed.  Now I'm playing the Ragozin/Vienna and 1...e5 with the Yurtaev; they're all sharp and sound and have been played by many strong players, but not the most popular below IM level (though the Ragozin is gaining in popularity). 

Another sort of player would be happy with the Breyer and Queen's Gambit Declined, but I don't think that they put enough pressure on White to show something down at our level.  You just need to make sure that you're better prepared than your opponents, which isn't that difficult if you choose your openings wisely.
« Last Edit: 07/12/18 at 19:05:30 by ErictheRed »  
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mn
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Re: Some Yurtaev Questions
Reply #5 - 07/12/18 at 01:50:01
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Fair enough - thanks for the info!
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Some Yurtaev Questions
Reply #4 - 07/11/18 at 06:06:13
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Remember that my games are all online blitz games, but my blitz rating is generally about 2250 - 2350 and I do play against a large number of NMs, FMs, and IMs on chess.com. 

I get a fair amount of 7.d3, but for those games I play the same sort of stuff that I do against 5.d3.

I almost never get 7.Nxe5, which is a little odd because it's a line I might look into if I were White and wanted a somewhat simple answer to the Yurtaev that I knew that I could get on the board.  It seems like it could be a practical repertoire solution for White, but I'm happy with Black's position there in general. 

Most common is 7.c3 d6 8.d4 Bb6, but then I get a random assortment of 9.Re1, 9.Bg5, 9.h3, 9.a4, and even a fair amount of 9.dxe5?!.  Most of these people seem to be playing on general principle and not that well-prepared, but there are a few that have specialized in one of these lines.  Some lines are quite sharp, even if not that critical in a theoretical sense: both sides need to know what they're doing.

Of the games that get to move 7 without earlier deviations, probably 1/4 continue with the critical 7.a4.  But most of those people don't remember their theory all that well, and even though I'm not really an active otb player, I'm generally better prepared than any of my opponents there unless I'm playing IMs.  A lot of non-titled players might play 7.a4 because they know it's the critical try, but after another 5 moves or so they can't remember what to do. 

Think about it: you've got a lot to prepare for as White, and this isn't exactly at the top of your list of priorities to keep up-to-date on.  As Black, you'll probably almost always be better prepared than your opponent here, unless it becomes widely known that you're playing this stuff.
« Last Edit: 07/11/18 at 21:52:35 by ErictheRed »  
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mn
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Re: Some Yurtaev Questions
Reply #3 - 07/10/18 at 19:35:33
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Thanks for the replies!

Re: to the winning chances thing, I probably should have suspected as much.

I did actually play (read: aim for) the Marshall for a while, but I almost never got it on the board (once in ~30 Black 1 e4 e5 games OTB), and when I met 8 c3 online I often did terribly, because my opponents just knew more than me (because I'd barely put any time in, given no one was playing it).

Yeah, pretty much everything chess-related Svidler does is excellent, I need to watch his Archangel series at some point. I asked about Shirov because I know he recommends 13...Bxf3, which I'm interested in, as opposed to Svidler's 13...ed4.

Finally, the insight into what lines White players are choosing is appreciated. I also like the 10 a5 line for White, Isa Smiley.

I've played 5...Be7 etc. for a decently long time, so I have a more or less reasonable idea of the frequency of the Exchange/5 d3/5 Qe2/whatever else vs. 5 0-0. However, I have almost no experience with 5...b5 - Eric, what's been your experience with people going 5 0-0; do you get the main stuff with a4/Na3 (or a5, as above) a lot?

Thanks again!

  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Some Yurtaev Questions
Reply #2 - 07/10/18 at 17:15:08
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I've only played this in online blitz since I've hardly played over the board for about six years, but it's been my main anti-Spanish line for a couple of years now.

1. Regarding point one, I completely agree with IsaVulpes. Even against FMs and occasional IMs online, there are plenty of chances for Black to deviate to seek winning chances if you do your own homework. I've sprung some nice surprises on fairly strong players.  You just need to be happy with "unclear" assessments, or even perhaps "Black has compensation, but is it enough?".  If you do your homework you'll be much better prepared than your opponents and should be fine.

2. I don't know if a particular reason why 13...Bxf3 has been less popular, either.

3. I haven't seen it, either. I love Svidler's videos, though.

4. I get 5.d3 (or on the next few moves) in approximately half of my online games it seems, or at least in half of the ones that are not an Exchange Spanish. You certainly have to prepare for it.
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: Some Yurtaev Questions
Reply #1 - 07/10/18 at 13:25:40
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My attempt at answering (mind you I'm just a ~1900, so ymmv, but nobody else is saying anything, so I figure some answer is better than none):

1. I believe this greatly depends on a huge number of definitions in that sentence, ie "knows what he is doing", "realistic chances", etc.
Of course if White is perfectly prepared in every line up to move 30, there won't be a lot to do; but Black has several paths to take even within the most critical lines, and while they may not objectively equalize, it is very unlikely that White actually "knows what he is doing" in all of them - unless you're like a 2600+ GM.
Eg if you take the mainline position at move 18 (after 13.Bc2 ed4: 14.Nbd4: Nd4: 15.cd4: Bf3: 16.gf3: Qh4 17.Kh1 Qf6 18.Be3), now Black has picked between 18. ..Ra8, 18. ..Nf4, 18. ..g6, and 18. ..c5. Who is going to have deep prep on four different branches at move 18 of a sideline?

Then of course there is always the question how ambitious the White player will be - if he just wants a draw starting from the onset of the game, it's quite possible that you can't do much about it, but that's the case in pretty much every opening.
You could ask the same question about the Marshall.. which I do think gives very realistic winning chances if you are better prepared and/or White is challenging you in some fashion, but of course if White wants to he can pick a variation where you either have to enter dubious waters or it's just a dead drawn endgame; but how often does this happen? Either White tries for something, then it won't be an issue, or White is vastly lower rated, then he won't know what he is doing.

2. Not that I (or anyone?) know of. Svidler gives 15.f4 as the critical line, but also notes that it's being played in Correspondence semi-regularly and Black holds his own. He said he didn't find complete equality, but then again neither did he in his own mainline, so it appears to be as valid an option as any other. Perhaps in practical terms this is easier to deal with for White (either than for Black, or than the mainline)?

3. No idea, never saw it. The only comment I can leave here is that I've seen a lot of poor reviews of his DVDs in general; that they're underprepared / lazy / badly made / etc even when they're fresh on the shelves, so I'm not sure how much I would trust it in the first place. Svidler's video series on c24 is excellent, I'd recommend checking that one out.

4. I played the Yurtaev for some half a year in (both on- and offline) Blitz/Rapid (never got it in my classical OTB games, as nobody played the Ruy against me in that period) and got the mainline exactly never.
c3-d4 is decently common, but the a4-Na3 business just didn't appear on the board. Generally people either don't know it and then don't find it, or they know it but also know it invites some deep complications, so they consciously avoid it. Personally I don't go for the mainline either as White  Wink I found 10.a5 to be more comfortable to play. Whether that still counts as 'critical stuff' I suppose is up for debate.
In general the entire system is still not very well known at "amateur" level; with most Black players I've seen still playing 6. ..Bb7 (and therefore White players largely being unprepared for 6. ..Bc5).
  
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mn
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Some Yurtaev Questions
07/06/18 at 21:04:28
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So I'm looking at picking up the good ol Yurtaev Variation (5...b5 6 Bb3 Bc5), and I had a few general questions:

1. If White knows what he's doing (particularly in the critical pawn sac ab5/Na3 line), does Black have realistic chances to play for a win, or is it mostly just trying to hold pawn-down position?
2. In the very main line (7 a4 Rb8 8 c3 d6 9 d4 Bb6 10 ab5 ab5 11 Na3 0-0 12 Nxb5 Bg4 13 Bc2); 13...Bxf3 has been out of fashion, but I haven't found anything much for White, and it scores decently for Black in the Ruy Lopez PowerBook 2018. Is there anything wrong with this line?
3. Is Shirov's older DVD still relevant theoretically, or does it mostly serve as a collection of his games in this line by now?
4. (For anyone that's played the Yurtaev in practice), how often do you actually get the critical stuff, as opposed to 7 d3 systems and whatnot.

Thanks!
  
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