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Normal Topic What to play against the reti and english? (Read 588 times)
brabo
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Re: What to play against the reti and english?
Reply #7 - 07/10/18 at 08:50:23
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HgMan wrote on 07/10/18 at 06:10:11:
1. c4 e6 2. g3 f5 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Nc3 d5

I recommended this line here in 2010 see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1234670097/15
However end of last year I was defeated by an international master having prepared a very strong anti-dote: 7.cxd5 exd5 8.e3 which transposed and followed for another 5 moves below important game.

I studied this opening for many weeks but had to admit that there is no road to equality for black. That is why I started to look at the Classical Dutch see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1369191586/60.
  
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HgMan
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Re: What to play against the reti and english?
Reply #6 - 07/10/18 at 06:10:11
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I remember studying that Korchnoi-Bronstein game many years ago.

1. c4 e6 2. g3 f5 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Nc3 d5 7. d3 c6
(7... d4!? 8. Na4 Nc6 maybe isn't terribly convincing, but it prevents the e-pawn thrust) 8. e4 dxe4 9. dxe4 fxe4 10. Qxd8 Rxd8 11. Ng5 e5 12. Ngxe4 Na6 13. Bg5 and maybe 13...Bf5 is a more persuasive path toward equality. The knight can come to b4 if necessary.

I'm not trying to refute your claim (which is correct), but only to point out that Black fighting for the centre (as distinct from resorting to the Classical against any opening from White) makes more sense. To be more specific, I'd be inclined to play 1.c4 e5 and then some variation of ...d6, ...f5, and ...Nf6, where White's first move gives Black some flexibility.

Quote:
Schiller (1999) Hypermodern Opening Repertoire for White, pages 133-137, analyzes Moutousis - Pjami, Zouben zonal 1993:
1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.b3 e6 4.Bb2 f5 5.g3 Nf6 6.Bg2 Bd6 7.O-O O-O 8.d3 Qe7 (Schiller also considers 8...Nbd7, 8...b6 and 8...Bd7) 9.Nbd2 e5 10.e4 fxe4 11.dxe4 d4 (Schiller also considers 11...Nxe4) 12.Ne1 c5 13.Nd3 Nc6. Schiller says “It is hard to believe White has all that much here, but ...” 1-0 in two games.


I'd want to look at Schiller's notes and comments, but I'd bang the Stonewall drum all day long if this is the kind of position I got from it. Black looks terrific here. Sure: White got to play e4, but Black has to be markedly better here, no?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: What to play against the reti and english?
Reply #5 - 07/10/18 at 03:51:07
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HgMan wrote on 07/10/18 at 01:28:12:
As for the Stonewall, I only mentioned that as an alternative. But with pawns on d5 & f5 and a knight on f6, I'm not sure how White forces in e4.

With a temporary pawn sacrifice, like so:
1.c4 e6 2.g3 f5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.O-O O-O 6.Nc3 d5 7.d3 c6 8.e4 dxe4 9.dxe4 fxe4 10.Qxd8 Rxd8 11.Ng5 e5 12.Ngxe4 Na6 13.Bg5 Nc7 14.f4 Korchnoi - Bronstein, USSR ch Tallinn 1965. += according to Keene (1979) Flank Openings, page 54.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1034315

Schiller (1999) Hypermodern Opening Repertoire for White, pages 133-137, analyzes Moutousis - Pjami, Zouben zonal 1993:
1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.b3 e6 4.Bb2 f5 5.g3 Nf6 6.Bg2 Bd6 7.O-O O-O 8.d3 Qe7 (Schiller also considers 8...Nbd7, 8...b6 and 8...Bd7) 9.Nbd2 e5 10.e4 fxe4 11.dxe4 d4 (Schiller also considers 11...Nxe4) 12.Ne1 c5 13.Nd3 Nc6. Schiller says “It is hard to believe White has all that much here, but ...” 1-0 in two games.

Black cannot stop e2-e4, so most players distrust the Stonewall against 1.c4, even moreso against 1.Nf3 when white does not have to play c2-c4.
  
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HgMan
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Re: What to play against the reti and english?
Reply #4 - 07/10/18 at 01:28:12
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Well, you can't control/determine what your opponent will or won't play. I think the sternest criticism of the Classical Dutch against English/Réti systems is that the second player doesn't claim the centre on offer (the absence of d4 means that an early ...e5 is strong).

As for the Stonewall, I only mentioned that as an alternative. But with pawns on d5 & f5 and a knight on f6, I'm not sure how White forces in e4.
  

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Re: What to play against the reti and english?
Reply #3 - 07/09/18 at 19:07:43
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Thanks for the input, so you fell the stonewall will work vs the english and reti? I thought it wasn't advised cause white gets e4 in.
  
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Re: What to play against the reti and english?
Reply #2 - 07/09/18 at 15:58:37
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I would second the 1...e5 & ...d6, ...f5 vs. 1.c4, and maybe something comparable against 1.Nf3. If White isn't going to fight for the e5 square, it seems a shame not to claim it (and an argument against the Classical Dutch in these kinds of situations). These are in keeping with some of those 1...d6 repertoires, but I'd avoid that as an opening move, especially against 1.Nf3, since 2.e4 means you have work and/or extra preparation to do.

Depending on how much you want to alter your repertoire, the Stonewall Dutch is another option that you could mix with the Classical against 1.d4, but also have in your pocket against English and Réti players. It is solid, stakes a greater claim in the centre, and yet isn't too dissimilar from what you typically play.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: What to play against the reti and english?
Reply #1 - 07/08/18 at 11:02:56
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I believe the Classical Dutch set-up against the Réti and English is covered in Williams' Killer Dutch book (and his older one too, for that matter). Also, against the English, you can try some sort of 1...e5 set-up with ...f5, which probably bears some resemblance to the Classical Dutch (watch out fo the d2-d4 break though).
  
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What to play against the reti and english?
07/08/18 at 05:28:11
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Hi all, I usually play e6 against everything, going for a French or classical Dutch. What should I do vs the english and reti? I am starting to feel my classical is not the best vs those openings? Any good books out there maybe that could give me something sharp to play against it with not too much chance of transposition to a d4 opening I do not play. Thanks, any advice would be great.
  
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