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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 6.Be3 e6 7.a3 (Read 773 times)
bragesjo
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #19 - 08/10/18 at 10:53:27
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A bit off topic, but about my post above if anyone wants to know why I played that many Najdorf Be3 events is becouse it is regular standard event at ICCF.  I have won one of the Najdorf events and got 2nd or 3rd place in the others. I  however mainly play this since I think that the position leads to interesting play for both sides unlike some other thematical events I played in like several Petroff events.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #18 - 08/09/18 at 11:16:01
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About 6 Be3 Ng4 from whites point of view compare to 6 f3 I like to give a comment.
6 Be3 allows Ng4 but I dont think is an issue, I have +2 =2 -0 from thematical corr games at ICCF where I played 7 Bg5.
However 6 Be3 does not commit white to a f3 setup, thus one can play the positional 7 Nf3 vs e5 and vs e6 one can play 7 Be2 or 7 a3  that this thread is about. However if white intends to play f3 setup vs both e5 and e6 than 6 f3 might be a better move order for practical reasons.

In the thematical 6 Be3 events combined (5 events including a recent started) 6 .. e6 has been the most common move for some reason. A thing I noticed is that I have scored best in % with white against g6 and lowest vs e5 but I have some new ideas vs e5. I have played e5 myself in my black games in every event.



« Last Edit: 08/09/18 at 16:10:52 by bragesjo »  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #17 - 08/09/18 at 07:31:41
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after 7.g4 black has 7..e5
small advantage black , of course over the board in such complicated tactical variations that doesn't mean much.
------------------------
after 7.g4 b5 8.g5 Nfd7 9.a3 Bb7 it's better to play h4 than Bg2.
The Bf1 protects c4 and sometimes goes to h3 directly.
It is only needed on g2 to protect e4 and prevent d5.
But still, even with 10.Bg2 instead of h4 white should be
a bit better theoretically.
10...Nc6,11.f4 Be7 12.h4 O-O 13.Nxc6 Bxc6 14.h5
is my current favourite.

other possibilities : 13.f5 , 13.Qe2


  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #16 - 08/08/18 at 17:03:40
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Of course, 6..Ng4 is only an option for Najdorf players.  It doesn't help those of us who play the Schevy with 2..e6 or even 5..e6.

So what to do about 6.Be3 a6 7.a3.  I'm coming around to the idea that Black should play 7..Be7, but I started looking at 7..b5 first, and I still have some questions about 7..b5 8.g4 Bb7 9.Bg2 Nfd7 10.g5.   

This position would come about through the Perenyi move order, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 a6 7.g4 b5 8.g5 Nfd7 9.a3 Bb7, if White were to play 10.Bg2 instead of the usual 10.h4.  I don't know where theory currently stands in these positions, but, as best I've been able to tell, after 10..Nc6, Black ought to be OK.            

 
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #15 - 08/08/18 at 09:37:29
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I had analysed this too, white had some advantage after
6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bg5 (+0.17 d46-50) , I should also have
it at greater depth and with more moves in the main variation,
but can't find it now, I think it was 7...h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Bg3 Bg7
10.h3 Ne5 11.Nf5
10...Nf6 11.Qf3 Qb6 12.O-O-O Nc6 13.Nxc6 Qxc6 14.Be2 Qc5 +0.25d50
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #14 - 08/07/18 at 17:03:30
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gsgs wrote on 08/06/18 at 14:22:52:
ok, it's not in the forum, but in the main page
Open Sicilians
Update April 2018
with GM Michael Roiz

referring to a game Paravyan, D - Grandelius, N
which went 7...h5 8.Be2 Nbd7
concluding "Regarding the opening, 7.a3!? definitely deserves further practical tests."

with 7...h5 I had a public forum (corr.) game Stertenbrink-Sikorski , 2018 , which went
8.Bd3 b5 9.Qe2 Qc7 10.O-O-O Nbd7 11.Rhe1 etc. White was a bit better but it was not
enough to win, equality was reached ~10 moves later.
Interesting was 11.Bg5 according to posthum analysis (Qc5,Bd2 +0.40d52)


I always thought that 6.Be3 Ng4 was an annoying line for White to meet. Does White have better than transposing to the 6.f3 Lines?
  

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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #13 - 08/06/18 at 14:22:52
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ok, it's not in the forum, but in the main page
Open Sicilians
Update April 2018
with GM Michael Roiz

referring to a game Paravyan, D - Grandelius, N
which went 7...h5 8.Be2 Nbd7
concluding "Regarding the opening, 7.a3!? definitely deserves further practical tests."

with 7...h5 I had a public forum (corr.) game Stertenbrink-Sikorski , 2018 , which went
8.Bd3 b5 9.Qe2 Qc7 10.O-O-O Nbd7 11.Rhe1 etc. White was a bit better but it was not
enough to win, equality was reached ~10 moves later.
Interesting was 11.Bg5 according to posthum analysis (Qc5,Bd2 +0.40d52)
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #12 - 08/06/18 at 01:09:49
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gsgs wrote on 08/02/18 at 07:43:43:
kylemeister wrote on 08/01/18 at 19:13:52:
One thing is, it appeared in the April update (yes, as a Scheveningen --B80).




maybe you mean 6.a3 ? That's what I found here.
Scheveninger Keres Attack is considered pretty good for White
by Stockfish. a3 would be suboptimal there but still good for white


No.  In the April update, it is 6.Be3 e6 7.a3 that is covered.
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #11 - 08/03/18 at 00:46:52
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a3 is useful in that it prevents b5-b4.
After 7.a3 Be7 8.f3 (which often transposes to French Steinitz) I would say
that Be7 is more useful than a3 and White would prefer to change 7.a3 for another move.
But in the typical English Attack variations with 7.f3 , Be7 is not optimal,
it is usually delayed in favour of b5,Nbd7,Bb7.
So , even with the less useful move a3, white is better than with 7.f3 b5.
------------------------------------------------
My last OTB rating was 2285, inactive, ICCF GM 1984 , Guenter Stertenbrink.
This is not my analysis but asmFish's/stockfish's , I just
decide on which variations to concentrate.
It took me a while at first to "understand" 7.a3 and how/why such a move
might be best in that position.
Here is how it started :
[rybkaforum , 2017 , links  not allowed ]
I've never considered/played 7.a3 before that.
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #10 - 08/02/18 at 21:19:27
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After 7 a3 Be7, I just don't see how you can make the case that a2-a3 is more useful than ...Be7.
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #9 - 08/02/18 at 20:50:13
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gsgs wrote on 08/02/18 at 08:25:46:
in summary,
the average evals in centipawns at depths 52-56 for the 6 main variations
were : (files loh*.l1 , asmFish 9 , 4 cores , contempt=0)

+24,Be7,f3
+24,e5,Nb3
+31,b5,g4
+32,h6,f4
+28,Nc6,Qd2
+18,h5,Bd3
+44,Nbd7,g4,h6,f3

you won't find such good evals for White at depth >50 for other 7th moves.


What's your OTB rating?
  

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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #8 - 08/02/18 at 08:25:46
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in summary,
the average evals in centipawns at depths 52-56 for the 6 main variations
were : (files loh*.l1 , asmFish 9 , 4 cores , contempt=0)

+24,Be7,f3
+24,e5,Nb3
+31,b5,g4
+32,h6,f4
+28,Nc6,Qd2
+18,h5,Bd3
+44,Nbd7,g4,h6,f3

you won't find such good evals for White at depth >50 for other 7th moves.
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #7 - 08/02/18 at 07:57:03
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>  A bit sceptical, but I am willing to be persuaded it's good
> if you can back it up! [/quote]

6 main responses (depth 56) , 30 variations analysed with asmFish
at depth >50 (tablets, 4 cores)

71 analysis files in my g:/chess/log/7a3  directory
with names :

7nc6a,9h6,be7e,7be7g,7nbd7bc4,7h6f4,11f4,11rc8,11nxd4,9nc6,
7h5bd3,8e5,7f3,9f3,8g4,7be7,11rh3,9h5,7a3t,14h5c,14h5,11be7,
7e5c,8e5b,18qe4,12qh5b,12qh5,13qe2b,9bg2b,9be7b,7nbd7,7nbd7c,
be7d,11f4c,11f4b,11be7b,loh7a3,7gba,7a3b,7be7f3,12nxc6,13qd2,
11be7c,13qd2b,7be7f3b,ho1,7be7i,7be7j,10nfd7,12qe2f,7be7f,9nfd7,
7be7k,12qe2e,7be7c,hor13,7nc6,ho5,9bg2,9be7,loh7e5nb3,loh7be7f3,
loh7h5bd3,loh7nc6qd2,loh7nbd7g4,loh7h6f4,loh7b5g4,7b5g4b,
loh7nbd7g4h6,loh7a3b,7h5v,

Code
Select All
7.a3
multipv=10
 fen rnbqkb1r/1p3ppp/p2ppn2/8/3NP3/P1N1B3/1PP2PPP/R2QKB1R b KQkq - 0 7
      48-50  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51
-----------
b7b5 ,  16 1,26,39,31, 7,20,21,20,40,26,23,34,24,16,22,30,27,25,15,18, 8,19,12,17,17 , b7b5 g2g4 h7h6 f1g2 ,51
h7h6 ,  20 1,12,20,32,27,15,23,12,10,27,29,19,31,36,18,30,26,27,27,40,12,20,25,17,28 , h7h6 f2f4 d8c7 d1e2 ,51
f8e7 ,  21 0,16,30,20,32,20,25,17,12, 8, 8,16,11,12,10,21,15,27,13,21,10,17,22,26,24 , f8e7 f2f3 e8g8 d1d2 ,51
b8d7 ,  21 5,12,30,17,21,24,15, 8,10,17,27,24,29,31,26,39,16,14,10,11,30,15,26,24,-- , b8d7 f1c4 d8c7 d1e2 ,50
e6e5 ,  23 2,32,37,40,21,27,39,39,20,34,31,25,23,27,24,22,19,18,27,17,15,22,18,30,22 , e6e5 d4b3 f6g4 e3c1 ,51
b8c6 ,  24 8,22,40,23,26,35,28,29,28,38,22,39,37,26,25,35,23,30,25,17,31,22,30,20,24 , b8c6 h2h3 f8e7 g2g4 ,51
h7h5 ,  28 2,28,37,37,40,38,23,26, 9,10,12,15,26,30,29,27,20,30,26,23,26,30,22,33,-- , h7h5 f2f4 b8d7 f1d3 ,50
c8d7 ,  38 3,40,57,51,44,67,49,45,62,--,--,51,32,40,34,30,40,37,--,--,25,29,42,43,-- , c8d7 g2g4 h7h5 g4g5 ,50
d8c7 ,  41 7,48,49,35,46,26,30,38,40,37,29,40,37,52,37,35,41,32,32,37,28,47,38,40,-- , d8c7 g2g4 h7h6 f2f3 ,50
d6d5 ,  46 -,--,--,--,--,--,--,47,47,28,43,57,49,--,--,--,--,--,38,50,55,45,37,57,-- , d6d5 e4d5 f6d5 c3d5 ,50
d8a5 ,  -- -,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,49,52,--,--,--,48,50,--,--,--,--,-- , d8a5 f2f3 b8c6 d1d2 ,46
d8d7 ,  -- -,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,-- , d8d7 f1e2 f8e7 f2f4 ,19
f6d7 ,  -- -,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,-- , f6d7
g7g6 ,  -- -,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,56,47,--,--,--,--,--,--,60,--,--,--,--,--,--,-- , g7g6 f1c4 f8e7 c4b3 ,44
b7b6 ,  -- 8,23,34,40,36,45,47,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,42,55,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,-- , b7b6 f2f3 h7h5 f1c4 ,43
-----------
      48-50  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51


 




  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #6 - 08/02/18 at 07:43:43
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kylemeister wrote on 08/01/18 at 19:13:52:
One thing is, it appeared in the April update (yes, as a Scheveningen --B80).


maybe you mean 6.a3 ? That's what I found here.
Scheveninger Keres Attack is considered pretty good for White
by Stockfish. a3 would be suboptimal there but still good for white
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #5 - 08/02/18 at 07:36:58
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yes, computers often play (7.a3 Be7 8.Qe2)  8...e5 (or 9...e5)
humans in Blitz rarely play it.

Here are 20 games eith it asmFish - Komodo , Houdini
20 moves only , TCEC-like time control

[that didn't work ,
Sorry, you are not allowed to post messages containing active links to websites or images before you have posted 15 normal messages. ]

Code
Select All
 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 e6 7. a3 Be7


01, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. f4 exf4 12. Bxf4  d4 13.O-O-O O-O 14.  Qf3 Nc6 15. Bc4 Rc8 16. Nd5 Bd6 17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18. Kb1 Bxf4 19. Qxf4 Rcd8 20. g4 Qd6   a-k,52,24
07, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. f4 exf4 12. Bxf4 Nc6 13.O-O-O  d4 14.  Qf3 O-O 15. Bc4 Rc8 16. Nd5 Bd6 17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18. Kb1 Ne5 19. Bxe5 Bxe5 20. Bd3 Qc6   a-k,30,26
06, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. f4 exf4 12. Bxf4 O-O 13.  Qf3 Nc6 14.O-O-O  d4 15. Bc4 h6 16. Rhe1 Rc8 17. Ba2 Qb6 18. Ne4 Rfd8 19. Qg3 Nxe4 20. Rxe4 Bf6    k-a,21,28
04, 8. Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O  e5 10. Nf5 Bxf5 11. exf5 d5 12. f4 exf4 13. Bxf4  d4 14. Qf3  Nc6 15. Bc4 h6 16. Rhe1 Rc8 17. Ba2 Qb6 18. Ne4 Rfd8 19. Qg3 Nxe4 20. Rxe4 Bf6    k-a,22,19
05, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. f4 exf4 12. Bxf4 Nc6 13.O-O-O  d4 14.   g4 O-O 15.  g5 Nd5 16. Nxd5 Qxd5 17. f6 Bxa3 18. bxa3 Rfe8 19. Bg2 Qa2 20. Qd3 Na5   a-k,00,00

03, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. Bg5 Qb6 12.O-O-O d4 13. Ne4 Nbd7 14. Bxf6 Nxf6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16. Qe4 O-O-O 17. Rd3 Qd6 18. Rb3 Qd5 19. Bd3 Qxe4 20. Bxe4 Rd7 a-k,35,08
09, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. Bg5 Qb6 12.O-O-O d4 13. Ne4 Nbd7 14. Bxf6 Nxf6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16. h4 O-O-O 17. g4 h6 18. Bg2 Rd7 19. Rh3 Qc5 20. Qe4 Qe7      a-k,23,36

02, 8. Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O e5 10. Nf5 Bxf5 11. exf5 d5 12. Bg5 d4 13. Bxf6 Bxf6 14. Ne4 Nd7 15. h4 Rc8 16. g4 Be7 17. g5 f6 18. Kb1 Kh8 19. Bg2 Nb6 20. gxf6 Bxf6           k-a,42,25
10, 8. Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O e5 10. Nf5 Bxf5 11. exf5 d5 12. Bg5 d4 13. Bxf6 Bxf6 14. Ne4 Be7 15. g4 Nd7 16. h4 Rc8 17. g5 f6 18. Kb1 Kh8 19. Bg2 Nc5 20. Nxc5 Rxc5 ˙         k-a,35,55

08, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nb3  Be6 10. f3 Nbd7 11. g4 Nc5 12. Nxc5 dxc5 13. h4 b5 14. Qf2 Qc7 15.O-O-O b4 16. axb4 cxb4 17. Nd5 Bxd5 18. exd5 O-O 19. h5 b3 20. Kb1 Qxc2+       k-a,00,00
                 (Nf5)                                                                                                                                                  --------------
                                                                                                                                                                        26,   22


01, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 d4   13.O-O-O O-O 14.Qf3 Nc6   15.Bc4 Rc8    16.Nd5 Bd6   17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18.Kb1 Bxf4  19.Qxf4 Rcd8 20.g4 Qd6     a-k,52,24
02, 8.Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O e5 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 d5 12.Bg5 d4    13.Bxf6 Bxf6 14.Ne4 Nd7   15.h4 Rc8     16.g4 Be7    17.g5 f6      18.Kb1 Kh8   19.Bg2 Nb6   20.gxf6 Bxf6  k-a,42,25
03, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.Bg5 Qb6 12.O-O-O d4  13.Ne4 Nbd7  14.Bxf6 Nxf6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16.Qe4 O-O-O 17.Rd3 Qd6    18.Rb3 Qd5   19.Bd3 Qxe4  20.Bxe4 Rd7   a-k,35,08
04, 8.Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O e5 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 d5 12.f4 exf4   13.Bxf4 d4   14.Qf3 Nc6   15.Bc4 h6     16.Rhe1 Rc8  17.Ba2 Qb6    18.Ne4 Rfd8  19.Qg3 Nxe4  20.Rxe4 Bf6   k-a,21,28
05, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 Nc6  13.O-O-O d4  14.g4 O-O    15.g5 Nd5     16.Nxd5 Qxd5 17.f6 Bxa3    18.bxa3 Rfe8 19.Bg2 Qa2   20.Qd3 Na5    a-k,00,00
06, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 O-O  13.Qf3 Nc6   14.O-O-O d4  15.Bc4 h6     16.Rhe1 Rc8  17.Ba2 Qb6    18.Ne4 Rfd8  19.Qg3 Nxe4  20.Rxe4 Bf6   k-a,22,19
07, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 Nc6  13.O-O-O d4  14.Qf3 O-O   15.Bc4 Rc8    16.Nd5 Bd6   17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18.Kb1 Ne5   19.Bxe5 Bxe5 20.Bd3 Qc6    a-k,30,26
08, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nb3 Be6  10.f3 Nbd7  11.g4 Nc5  12.Nxc5 dxc5 13.h4 b5     14.Qf2 Qc7   15.O-O-O b4   16.axb4 cxb4 17.Nd5 Bxd5   18.exd5 O-O  19.h5 b3     20.Kb1 Qxc2+  k-a,00,00
09, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.Bg5 Qb6 12.O-O-O d4  13.Ne4 Nbd7  14.Bxf6 Nxf6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16.h4 O-O-O  17.g4 h6      18.Bg2 Rd7   19.Rh3 Qc5   20.Qe4 Qe7    a-k,23,36
10, 8.Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O e5 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 d5 12.Bg5 d4    13.Bxf6 Bxf6 14.Ne4 Be7   15.g4 Nd7     16.h4 Rc8    17.g5 f6      18.Kb1 Kh8   19.Bg2 Nc5   20.Nxc5 Rxc5  k-a,35,55


 




  
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